Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

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p00t
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Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:47 pm

Hello all, life's been busy and I haven't been on here in a while. I am interested in hearing everyone's thoughts on this. I am considering making this for the KA and SR community if there is interest.

I started this project a while ago and this summer I finally took the time to wire it into my car and start using it. It's going on the g20 too very soon, likely the end of the month.

Currently I have it running LSX coils, but it can run almost anything. I thought of this as an upgrade + tuning tool so it has adjustable timing. However, a lot of people don't need this function and it is rather easy to damage an engine by not taking the proper precautions. It has a display as well which cycles through timing, rpm, and voltage. But in the end I am thinking most people just want a plug and play little box that will give them COP (and be cheaper $$$$).

It is able to run straight dwell for coils like the LS1, LS2, and various pencil type coils. It can come pre-loaded with dwell maps which allows it to use coils like the LSX. You can even go big-baller status and run IGN-1A. (edit: I removed "stock coils" because the stock transistors run on a 12v signal, which this doesn't do (yet!).)

It works on any single coil DOHC Nissan (as far as I know). SOHC, I will need to have someone be the guinea pig. :teasing-poke:

Thoughts? :text-feedback:

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Displaying voltage. Extra wires are a debugging header, won't be on other versions.
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Voltage vs Apexi Timer voltage reading.
Last edited by p00t on Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by hotbox240 » Wed Nov 09, 2016 8:58 pm

Very cool. What would this setup cost? Could it be integrated into a plug and play ecu like nismotronic or megasquirt?
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Wed Nov 09, 2016 9:36 pm

Not sure on cost. Winging it... $100 if I had to assemble the parts and basic harness. I would have to look into how much can be manufactured before hand. It would be nice to find a cheaper solution and offer mounting brackets and full harnesses to make it more plug and play.

Yes it would work with any ECU, stock, daughterboard, or Nismotronic.

Megasquirt, no, you already have COP options with that!
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by adamky » Thu Nov 10, 2016 12:54 am

I like this idea a lot, as I want COP but am having trouble justifying the cost of something like Nismotronic or Megasquirt. I have both LS2 AND VQ coils sitting in a box somewhere too.
Wiseco/Eagle, JWT S1 cams, BC valve springs, PT5857, ID1700 injectors, SR20DET ECU w/ Nismotronic, COP conversion with LS ignition coils, etc, etc...
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by ICEMAN.KCMO » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:28 pm

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by Alonso » Sat Nov 12, 2016 5:12 pm

I was following your work for awhile on the SR forum. Glad to see the finished product!
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:21 pm

Alonso,

This is the first time I am openly advertising this so you may be talking about another persons project. That one is by ebinkered.

As I have witnessed news travels fast... creepy fast even.

Anyway, the design differences are that my design is driven entirely by prediction of when the ignition event occurs, so you can set any size dwell. The other design requires that the ECU sets the dwell. Which is fine for any dwell size that is less than the stock coil.

The main concern points are: 1. Charge time for the coil, and 2. Ignition time where the spark is "live" and able to ignite the fuel-air mixture.

Our stock coil has to eat into dwell time(1) to assure that there is adequate ignition time (2). OK at low RPM, but high RPM the dwell is decreased with engine speed. It has one channel to work with.

So it depends on your needs/setup.

I'm sure that design is cheaper in that it is discrete components mostly. Mine is 100% software driven. Maybe my design only resonates with power users (tuners)? That's why I want feedback :werd:
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by hotbox240 » Sun Nov 13, 2016 5:43 am

I'd be interested in trying it out. I can do COP ignition with nismotronic but I would have to trade over to an SR ecu. Alonso I believe made it work.
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by Alonso » Sun Nov 20, 2016 11:43 am

Sorry for the confusion. It's been awhile since been over there to check out their progress. I just assumed it was the same person.

Yes, the cop conversion works beautifully. In fact, it worked so well, that I cracked a ring land pushing 20psi on pump gas with oem pistons. Not once did I experience any spark blow out with plug gap set at .044!
Billet PTE 6765 divided T4, Nismotronic, Speed density, Coil on plug conversion.

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Mon Apr 03, 2017 8:36 pm

Image

Built a couple. The text will look better on future ones I do, I bought the wrong case front for these. It's textured so the print is a pain to put on.

Selectable modes:
-> Diagnostics (cam/crank/ignition signal)
-> Timing mode (fixed timing to check that coils are firing correctly versus timing light, or setting your distributor timing)
-> LS2/7/Truck Coils (mapped dwell table for D585 & D514 GM Coils)
-> LS1/6 Coils (mapped dwell table for D577 GM Coils)
-> 1-15ms Dwell (Straight dwell, no voltage compensation)
-> 1-15ms Dwell (0.4-1ms/Volt Linear Compensation)

This is only for +5v logic coils. I can add more preset coil configurations in the future. I have been impressed by the GM coils so far so I find them hard to beat, especially on price. For GM coils you can usually buy 8 for $90-100 used and you get all the connectors. After that you will just need the spark plug cables. I may offer a mounting solution if there is enough interest but I don't want to get ahead of myself here.

If anyone is interested the COP converters will be $125 shipped. They are all built by hand and will include a shielded heat/flex rated harness.

I will want to run it on my car for another month before I let it into the wild. Don't you wish this was available 10 years ago? Because I do!
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by Nomad » Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:10 pm

Nice!
Can you confirm it works on a SOHC, as per your first post?
Though I would have to change my stock "coil-in-distributor" setup, of course.
Would you be willing to ship to Australia?
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:38 pm

I have no problem shipping to other countries. I looked briefly at Aussie regulations today and I don't think there is any issue shipping there.

I do have SOHC crank sensors but no ECU. From looking at the waveforms the SOHC and DOHC CAS seems the same to me. So as far as I can tell you can use a DOHC ECU on a SOHC engine. I will give that a shot in the next few days.

What coils do you plan to run?
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by adamky » Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:40 am

Yes, you can use a DOHC ECU on a SOHC motor. I think you have to move a few pins around on the main ECU connector.

Your first batch looks really good. Is the front piece with the text on it a big sticker that goes over that section? Or something else?
Wiseco/Eagle, JWT S1 cams, BC valve springs, PT5857, ID1700 injectors, SR20DET ECU w/ Nismotronic, COP conversion with LS ignition coils, etc, etc...
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Sat Apr 08, 2017 7:04 pm

adamky wrote:Yes, you can use a DOHC ECU on a SOHC motor. I think you have to move a few pins around on the main ECU connector.
Thanks, then my bench setup will be able to run it as-is.
adamky wrote: Your first batch looks really good. Is the front piece with the text on it a big sticker that goes over that section? Or something else?
C'mon Adam that's a trade secret! :happy-jumpgreen:

It's the most advanced of technologies... stamp and ink! I was looking at how the big players do it, and it is pad printing. Very similar but it requires a special machine which gets better results and fast cycle times. I did consider sticker but I use the stamp to center mark where to drill and I would need to have someone precut out the holes for the LEDs and knobs.
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by adamky » Sat Apr 08, 2017 10:34 pm

Lol, we'll keep it to ourselves, I promise. It looks really good for being a stamp. Good enough that I wouldn't have guessed it was a stamp until you told me.

I'm always interested in how things are made. I saw something online a while back where you can etch circuit boards at home with some chemicals and a laser printer. I've been DYING to do it ever since. I don't even know the first thing about making my own circuits, but just the fact that I could make it myself at home gets me all excited!
Wiseco/Eagle, JWT S1 cams, BC valve springs, PT5857, ID1700 injectors, SR20DET ECU w/ Nismotronic, COP conversion with LS ignition coils, etc, etc...
--> YouTube channel --> my build thread
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by mfschoenberg6522 » Tue Oct 13, 2020 7:30 am

3 years later... I would be interested in one of these "Nissan" COP Converters. After turbo rebuild, needed to reduce gap to avoid spark blow-out on a S14 Enthalpy tuned ka-t with Z32 MAF, DW 550cc injectors to about 0.028 on NKG BKR7E's. Still get some issues with a heat soaked engine after driving around town for an hour.

Considering using the '01 Maxima front bank style "smart" coils w/ built in igniter. There is a wire harness from an S15 SR20 that I can modify to use the coils. I'm assuming that the box takes the CAS wheel output from the S14 KA24DE dizzy to determine the firing triggers. The dwell & duration for the VQ coils are 3.1 ms & 2.0 ms respectively based on similar MS2PNP setups. Use of "smart" coils should be able to use a 5V trigger in the box rather than an igniter circuit to drive "dumb" 12v coil on plugs setups.

I've seen videos on Youtube regarding similar systems used on a G20 w/ SR20DE FWD using a controller for CNP systems. There is also a Arduino Uno project that takes the CAS input and will drive CNP/COP system in the youtube video comments section: https://youtu.be/v06FIRN5gIo

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by NukeKS14 » Thu Oct 15, 2020 6:29 pm

As a sidebar on those coils, the engine code is vq30dek. I am running them with megasquirt on my ka-t up to 21 psi, stock gap, no blowout on bkr7es11 plugs.

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by mfschoenberg6522 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 9:56 am

That's good to know. I've already ordered a S15 'smart' COP sub-harness from Wiring Specialties. Can you verify the dwell & duration are correct? I researched a Haltech stand alone and they seemed to have a chart of for rpm vs. voltage for S14/S15 SR20DET coil controls. The $1500 Haltech is out of my budget, but possibly go MSPNP2 or Nismotronics on an S13 SR20DET ECU if I can get the system going with the above mentioned COP Converter box.

I'm only running 10psi external wastegate on stock KA24 internals T3/TD04E w/ DW550cc & Z32 MAF w/ Enthalpy tuned S13 ECU on my '96 S14. I have an AEM boost gauge & boost contoller that I may eventually integrate into a RT tuning system.

I was looking at 350Z & R35 coils, but these are $$$. Seem like overkill, I'll have to figure out a low cost method (if any) to hold them to the valve cover. May just drill & tap AL cover and use appropriate spacers/hardware. The Nice Time Tuning cover is ~$300 and works for Honda K coils as designed.

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by NukeKS14 » Mon Oct 19, 2020 4:43 pm

The thread on these forums for converting to maxima coils discusses conservative settings to start. I can only speak to what dwell is working for me.

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by mfschoenberg6522 » Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:28 am

Up and running with "Dog.Tuning" Nissan COP converter box on my S14 KA24DET. Using NGK '01 Maxima Coils and Wiring Specialties S15 'smart' coil sub-harness and 2 x 3 mating connector. Used an Xcessive Engineering internal coil delete (not needed). It may be possible to use the internal coil wire to power the COP sub - harness, but still trying to determine the fused capacity (needs to be 15+ amps) from the Factory Service Manual. Since I have a wideband, I'm using the stock O2 sensor +12V to activate relay as it remains powered under cranking.

Costs:
Nissan COP Box = $125 + Shipping
S15 "smart" coil Sub-Harness = $70
New NGK '01 Maxima Coils = $150
Misc, relays, wiring, etc. ~$35
Dizzy Dust cover = $20

Total = $400, could have gone with Ebay / used for $100 less.

Will remove valve cover to add coil mounting hardware M6 x 1 bolts & spacers. Considering 2 part epoxy & tapped bosses, vs. very expensive valve cover adapter from Nice Time Tuning.

Seems like B13 Sentra owners with SR20DE could also use this solution, provided that the CAS trigger 180 / TDC trigger wheel differences in signal are accounted. I was also looking at SR20DET ecu daughterboard & CAS wheel modifications or Standalone. I was able to source a CA18DET cas disc for the trigger pattern, but it is not keyed for S13/S14 dizzy. Reference: http://datsun1200.com/modules/mediawiki ... ptical_CAS

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by mfschoenberg6522 » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:16 am

S14 KA USDM coil circuit is rated for 30A (pin 7):
S14_KA_Ign_Sig_FSM.pdf
(131.33 KiB) Downloaded 3 times
Reference S14 dizzy & pinouts for KA & SR:

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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by p00t » Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:03 pm

Glad you it got it running with the converter. It was interesting doing the testing to map out the dwell on those maxima coils. I learned that the 01 coils were more powerful but also easier to burn out than the 98 ones.

I think the stock coil power routes through the key cylinder (ignition switch) which is why I recommended a fresh feed off of the battery. As the key cylinder gets older there is significant voltage drop through it. Its been a while but I think thats how it was on my s13. Other things are fed from that same fuse which is why it is 30A. 15 or 20A should be plenty. The coils peak at a few amps when charging and are usually on one at a time... Maybe 2 at a time if you like to run up to 10k rpm ;)
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Re: Coil On Plug Conversion for Stock ECU

Post by cleantune » Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:44 pm

Such an awesome idea, great work on this!
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