Plastic intake manifold gaskets?

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niceguy
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Plastic intake manifold gaskets?

Post by niceguy »

Hey guys, I'm not turbo yet but thought I'd ask here since you guys push the envelope when it comes to engine reliability, power and heat. Intake manifold gaskets seem to be a problem issue, especially w/the FWD KA24DE (always at #4 cyl).

I noticed some plastic intake manifold gaskets/spacers (5mm) online but was wondering if anyone here had any input on them? First thought is if they were actually worth using, then turbo guys would have already had them but I thought I'd make sure.

My concern would be the sealing ability of the plastic used but interesting nonetheless..

$50 is alot for one gasket but if it was even remotely close to doing what is says....
Profab KA24DE Intake Manifold Gasket

Another that is $30...
Circuit Sports CS-TIGKA24DE Thermal Plenum Intake Spacer Gasket KA24DE
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Post by 480sx »

I use one, without RTV, and it works fine. Picked it up from ebay.

RTV on that is a great way to get crap sucked into your intake manifold and through your turbo or stuck up in your valves..

Those things are designed to crush creating a perfect seal without RTV.
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Post by niceguy »

Thanks alot for the feedback guys...My main interest was due to the advertised heat reduction but also the potential higher resistance to deterioration from heat and even oil contamination, On the Altima, the distibutor is notorious for leaking over time at the base and seems to weep toward the back of the motor, right at the #4 cylinder.

The plastic intake gasket would be added protection against the oil compromising the gasket material...

I'm dropping a later model 2000 KA24DE into my OBD1 '93 Altima so I'll be swapping intakes this weekend.
Just for any others that were curious, here were the links (thought I'd pasetd them)

Profab KA24DE Intake Manifold Gasket
Another that is $30...

Circuit Sports CS-TIGKA24DE Thermal Plenum Intake Spacer Gasket KA24DE

Thanks again

Jeremy
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Post by 480sx »

The whole thermal intake gasket idea is a great one. However, the KA has a freaken coolant discharge inside the intake manifold. That means that regardless of your thermal gasket or whatever, your IM is going to be super heated.

This is the KAs main design flaw IMO, but, until someone designs an intake manifold with a thermal barrier between the coolant discharge and the runners were SOL.
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Post by niceguy »

I didn't realize that before.....I never could understand how the IM could be so freaking hot...made the mistake of leaning on it w/bare arms one day....
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Post by jnt82 »

ok, glad you've burned your arm too. I'm not alone! I have that goofy plastic gasket installed and i'm perhaps 5k in on it. there have been no problems w/ it so far. But honestly its a waste of money, I feel like xcessive is notorious for making silly parts. this is just my opinion so try not to freak out ppl
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Post by 480sx »

Those gaskets are def not a waist of money. They will never fail on you, never wear out, and they are reusable. They are a huge upgrade from the factory paper gaskets.
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Post by jnt82 »

hmm ok, so the factory ones fail, of course I cant ask you to personally offer any confirmation your retort will be skewed. Has anyone else had a intake mani gaskets fail prior to you removing it or installing a different one. So why do you think exhaust gaskets work, (think about copper coat gasket spray) because they don't transmit heat well? If you said yes, you're wrong. Also what about the paper gasket between the plenum and the upper mani, they offer a replacement for that that gasket as well, if the paper ones are so unreliable why are so many thousands of cars made with them, solely to fail and rip you off?



*edit*

I never said they didn't make nice parts, Their stuff looks great, I just cant justify me personally ever owning their parts.

Side note, did anyone ever come to any conclusion about the torque gains w/ their intake manifold?
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Post by jnt82 »

I can agree with that.
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Post by niceguy »

Well that's why I posted this here because I couldn't seem to find hardly any intake gasket failure threads anywhere when dealing with the 240s KA....wasn't sure if it just wasn't discussed, RWD layout of the engine kept things cooler, or what....
Regarding the OEM gaskets, the intake manifold to head gasket fails quite a bit on the Altimas (always at #4 on the distributor end) and even though the turbo Altima owners seem to still use OEM gaskets, I just wanted to check the reputation of the plastic version.
I'd never heard of a plastic intake gasket and didn't bother to look until thinking about Aaron's thermal intake spacers at Maxima.org....
Re the plenum/collector gasket, those never seem to fail. Again, my interest in the plastic gasket isn't so much heat resistance, as it is oil resistance. That 'appears' to be the leading factor in the FWD intake manifold gasket failures.

Did you guys get specific torque specs w/the Xcessive or ebay gaskets or just used OEM specs?

Great info guys, love new ideas!
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Post by 480sx »

jnt82 wrote:hmm ok, so the factory ones fail, of course I cant ask you to personally offer any confirmation your retort will be skewed. Has anyone else had a intake mani gaskets fail prior to you removing it or installing a different one. So why do you think exhaust gaskets work, (think about copper coat gasket spray) because they don't transmit heat well? If you said yes, you're wrong. Also what about the paper gasket between the plenum and the upper mani, they offer a replacement for that that gasket as well, if the paper ones are so unreliable why are so many thousands of cars made with them, solely to fail and rip you off?

Side note, did anyone ever come to any conclusion about the torque gains w/ their intake manifold?
Wow..

What the hell was your comparison with exhaust gaskets about? You cant compare a paper intake gasket with a OEM style exhaust gasket, they are NOTHING alike.

Theres two things going on with a plastic style gasket. Their main selling point is the 'thermal barrier'... Like i said in a post above, this does NOTHING for a Ka because the heads have coolant running through them so, your not going to get any gains with these on a Ka. Ignore the idea that they give you extra power. On almost any other car that doesnt have the coolant discharge from the heads going through the intake manifold, they do give you HP. Colder intake manifold = Colder air = more hp.

The other thing thats going on, is that they are reusable, where as the paper style gaskets are not. For 30 dollars you can buy a gasket that will last you the lifetime of your Ka. Blow a motor, reuse the gasket on a different head. Need to service your head? Reuse your gasket. If you take the intake manifold off ONCE after you replace it with a new paper gasket, that means your going to have bought two paper gasket sets for the Ka. That is going to cost you more than the 30 dollars you would spend buying the plastic gasket.

The reason OEM manufacturers use these is because they are CHEAP and they work fine. OEM manufacturers arnt going to want to spend the extra 15 or so bucks on a gasket thats reusable and every bit as effective as a paper gasket. This allows them to make a gasket for there cars that keeps you spending money on their products. Saves them money, and makes them money. Its a win win for them.

No ones saying that a paper gasket wont last, because the truth of the mater is that they will as long as they dont consistently get oil/gas on them. They just are not reusable, and that bites a KaTer in the ass. It WILL cost you more money in the long run if you keep the car.
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Post by nissanfanatic »

I never use paper gaskets on mine. I always just use RTV plus a clean surface. I pull up to 600mm/hg of vacuum on idle on hot days.
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Post by 480sx »

RTV on your intake manifold is a horrible idea.

The amount of vac you pull has nothing to do with your RTV idea. ANY intake manifold gasket TQed down evenly, in sequence and to fsm spec is going to do the exact same thing without running the risk of sucking RTV up into your engine and blowing it out through your turbine.
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Post by jnt82 »

nissanfanatic, bad news aside from you 3000+ post, your amazing car, your obvious devotion to this forum. I think 480sx is saying please keep your "horrible Ideas" to yourself.
I've used permatex on my intake mani on my 2 altimas with no ill effects ever. I really would love to see and any amount of vac from a KA to suck the rtv out from between 2 flush mating surfaces, and if this really does happen I think I should also worry about my hood getting sucked into the intake manifold ( it may damage my turbo a little ). 480sx please show me some evidence of this being a horrible idea.

I gotta go with the guy with the faster car, more post and better rapport
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Post by 480sx »

:?

He spurs good discussion. :P

When you TQ the intake manifold down, your going to squeeze practically all the RTV out either side of the intake manifold/head, causing a part of the RTV bead to overhang inside the intake manifold. Over time any many heat cycles, the RTV will harden and become brittle when it has nothing to support it or keep it from the constant flow of air. Between vac and boost, that stuff has a chance of getting sucked through your engine, and into your turbo.

Anything blown through your turbine when it is hot is going to cause serious damage to your turbo, causing it to run less efficiently for the rest of its life. It can also throw off the balance of the wheel. With something that spins in the 100000+ rpm range, any damage done to your wheels can potentially prove to be catastrophic.
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Post by importdps »

The gaskets work. I actually have some Power Rev Racing ones. There like $35. So far no leaks on any of the cars we have done. I think they work functionally, but its hard for me to tell you truthfully how much power since most of the cars are boosted.
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Post by nissanfanatic »

Well I guess Orion and I are both ***** up. And my seven engine rebuilds have all failed because of RTV being used on the intake manifold.

I have never destroyed a compressor wheel from FOD. I did lock up my T04B approximately four years ago with a piece of silicone coupler that was shaved off by a pipe that was not filed down after it was cut, but the wheel survived and continued to make boost. That turbo is actually still in operating condition and I need to sell it. I ran it for another eight months or so at 11psi.

The problem you describe is easily remedied by applying the correct amount of RTV. The same thing could happen to an oil pan if you aren't careful, or any engine component for that matter. And a lot of pieces have flat surfaces with very small recesses cut to house the RTV.

....

I really don't encourage the "he has a faster car" methodology of deciding what is right. My methods are not always best for every person, and I encourage critical thinking in every person. In that, I recommend doing what you think is best, and thinking on your own. Use information provided to base your decision on, as well as your better judgment.
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Post by 480sx »

Just cant see it being worth the risk at all. Your taking on a very difficult job of making sure that stuff is perfect all the way around.

I mean looking at it from a risk-benefit perspective.. It has all the risk, and no benefits over a normal gasket. Well, i guess you could throw cost into the mix.

No auto manufacturer uses RTV for an intake manifold gasket.
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Post by EstoMax »

i dont wanna argue with the idea of using RTV because we use it on the front covers and the oil pan, but on the intake manifold there are no fluids to seep through the paper gasket so i can't see why you would go through the trouble of using RTV instead of the paper felpro? Have you (nissanfanatic/jnt82) had problems with the paper gasket?

just wondering..
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Post by nissanfanatic »

Yea, the paper gasket sucks to remove from the mating surface after it is heat cycled a few times. I don't have any trouble using RTV. Its natural after rebuilding six engines over the course of three months.

Coolant also runs through the intake manifold.

The benefit is it is sitting in my garage right now and it fills any surface irregularities better than a paper gasket will. It works fine for me and it will work fine for anyone who uses common sense while applying it..

No auto manufacturers use a T04R on a 2.4L four cylinder engine either. The RTV has held 32psi of boost, and I have never had a vacuum leak because of it. I only used the paper gasket once, and it felt retardedly flimsy, incompressible, and hard. It did work, but I decided not to use it anymore after that project. Since November of 2006, I have always used RTV on intake manifold junctions and I have never had a problem.

Considering the very small amount of space that the RTV actually takes up, measure it with, well whatever you have that is small enough to measure the gap that the RTV fills, and multiply 30psi times the measurement in decimal format in inches. That will tell you how much force is actually being applied to the RTV. It is probably effectively nothing.
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Post by EstoMax »

yea i agree with you that it probably won't cause problems, but the thing i'm wondering is that even though cleaning up the paper gasket is a pita, cleaning up RTV is even more pita (you have to scrape it all off because rtv doesnt stick to used rtv well - at least thats what i was told, correct me if im wrong)

but yeah, this is about plastic gaskets. with the plastic gasket you just clean the surface and slap it on right? it doesnt need any other gasket/rtv on its ends? Has anyone re-used one of those gaskets? i'm thinkin about getting one because i have removed my IM a few times and i agree that cleaning the old gasket off is pita (around the coolant passage especially)

in the end - for the sake of this discussion - who thinks that using rtv/paper gasket is better than a reusable plastic gasket (reusable, no residue)?

Marko
Last edited by EstoMax on Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by nissanfanatic »

Well, no. I don't ever really have a problem removing RTV. Brakleen and a razor blade usually work out pretty well for me. A piece of T shirt and rubbing usually takes the rest off.

Use whatever works for you, and whatever you would rather deal with.
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Post by Liger »

There are reasons why automotive manufacturers put certain gaskets in certain places, assign specific torquing sequences and so on...

I personally would NOT recommend using anything but factory specified gaskets, etc. I would not and do not use RTV on the intake manifold because you experience a lot of heat expansion and weight from the intake manifold, especially around the water neck. You would have to use such a minute amount that I cannot see the RTV lasting for an extended period of time, ie several years. Also, another reason not to use RTV on your intake manifold is the danger of fuel. If you run a rich mixture, have a fuel leak, or anything fuel related, including having your EGR still hooked up, you are having corrosive gassess and fluids infiltrate the sealing surface and will over time eat away the RTV.

This is my reasoning and why I stick with factory specified gaskets, etc.
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Post by jnt82 »

lol, I use permatex's "right stuff"

Image

Permatex® the Right Stuff® Gasket Maker
Return equipment to service immediately when you make leak-proof gaskets in just one minute with the Right Stuff.® This latest elastomeric rubber gasket technology is blowout resistant and outperforms pre-cut gaskets. Specified on production lines by GM, Ford, DaimlerChrysler and Mercedes-Benz. Temperature range -75°F to 450°F (-59°C to 232°C) continuous, 500°F (260°C) intermittent.; resists ATF, coolant, oil and other shop fluids. Protects against leaks caused by vibration and thermal expansion. Sensor-safe.

Suggested Applications: Automotive and marine gaskets, valve covers, gearbox covers, pumps, compressors, oil pans, thermostat housings, water pumps


My gas tank use to leak, due to some hairline crack. every repair kit I tried ( of course ones intended for fuel tank repairs ) would fail after about 1 week. "Right Stuff" is holding strong for 1 year now. Its getting bathed in gas all day every day, If that doesn't say something I don't know what will. Last I check Gas is a pretty damn good solvent and there is no trace of failure in any application that I have ever used it in.
Last edited by jnt82 on Fri Aug 15, 2008 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jnt82 »

EstoMax wrote:i dont wanna argue with the idea of using RTV because we use it on the front covers and the oil pan, but on the intake manifold there are no fluids to seep through the paper gasket so i can't see why you would go through the trouble of using RTV instead of the paper felpro? Have you (nissanfanatic/jnt82) had problems with the paper gasket?

just wondering..
Marko

sorry missed you post, answer: No never, I've only dealt with gasket b/c i was performing a complete build up.
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