Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

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Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

For everyone who's car currently breaths fire and everyone who aspires to it. Figure this would be a great place to do some brain storming regarding different ALS.

My personal cars all have some sort of ALS and most of our customers have started to request it. Don't get me wrong while ALSystems work GREAT, they also get things extremely hot very quickly and can destroy parts if not used reasonably and monitored closely!

Here is a good chunk of information i put together to help explain of the 2 more common and refined Anti lag systems/parts, enjoy. *good pics, video and diagram in the link*

http://brewed-motorsports.blogspot.com/ ... a-als.html

And of course a couple pictures of the good stuff.

Image

I personally run AEM EMS for tuning on my personal ka-t, 4g63 and sr20. All of them are set up with mild antilag, the 2 nissans will soon have a new secondary air induction system pre turbo as well for track use only of course.

Image

questions, comments and most of all IDEAS are more than welcome! (Keep it positive, same as boost pressure)

PS one of my ka-t customers Nate with the twinscroll GT3076 Full Race kit S14 should be able to post up a picture or video of his cars drag style ALS which provides a very nice flame ;) we'll see if he stumbles onto this thread haha.
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Post by MRLuke »

Blog post started off really well but I was expecting a page 2,3,4 where you went into more detail of what you actually run on your cars and how you make them work.

Im interested in the "rally style" ALS system.

At its very simplest form can you use a wastegate in the hot pipe to feed the exhaust manifold pre turbo?

What pressure do you set the wastegate to so that it opens and closes at the right times?

Is the only way to add additional fuel by using a fancy / separate ecu?

Why does the Mitsubishi system have a vacuum tank? How does it work? Pros/cons?

:D
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Post by franman »

Ah sorry, actually quite a few people have been asking for more. I will be sure there are a few more ALS posts in the future but i want more pictures and video to share before i go into to much more detail.

Regarding your questions;

This is all be for secondary air injection ALS (common rally style)

A bypass valve (connecting the compressor outlet to pre turbo exhaust) just need something that you can open and close as desired that will take the heat/pressure.
(Waste gates can be made to work, Mitsu uses a unique little valve i pictured)

A way to control when the valve will open and close (this is where the vacuum canister comes into play on the mitsu diagram)

A way to tune: This is the trickiest part, many ECU's/EMS can handle everything you need. Some however can not and you have to "work around" the missing features/tables.

Things to tune and keep a close eye on while using ALS
ignition timing
fuel/afr
bypass valve control
EGT's
turbo shaft speed
PRE throttle body pressure
Pre turbo exhaust manifold pressure


Thanks for the post and the questions my friend.
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Post by MRLuke »

Thank you for the reply :)

How does the vacuum tank work to control the valve? I would have expected the pressure to be the same as the rest of the post compressor pipework?

Standard turbo setup

When the throttle is open:
Exhaust manifold pressure is >1bar?
Post Compressor is >1bar?

When the throttle closes
Exhaust manifold pressure decreases? Vacuum spike then settles?
Post Compressor pressure spikes then settles?

########

Is the purpose of the vacuum tank to increase the time taken for the boost spike to settle?

########

With ALS

Open thottle:
~ same pressure, control valve shut

Closed throttle:
Post compressor spike and exhaust manifold vacuum combine to open air valve?
Pressure in manifold and post compressor would then be the same how does the valve stay open?

Throttle re-opened:
Creates vacuum spike post compressor to shut valve?

#####

Im stuck now.

1. Why does the valve stay open under closed throttle? Aren't the pressures the same in each pipe?
2. When you reapply the throttle how does the valve shut? What is to stop the air ignoring your engine?
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Post by MRLuke »

Ignore the above,

On reviewing the diagram I see that the control feed for the air valve is taken after the throttle?

This would mean that it will see vacuum whenever the throttle is closed and boost as soon as it opens? I guess that makes it quite straight forward then.

Only other hurdle is how do you inject fuel into the manifold? Cant imagine injectors would want to get that hot and I dont fancy having a high pressure fuel pipe next to a glowing manifold :O
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Post by franman »

The exhaust manifold will always have at least some positive pressure. (higher load, higher pressure, lower load less pressure) and i don't know of anyone that has tried to run an injector or rail anywhere near the exhaust manifold for anti lag but you do not need to.

the vacuum canister for the evo's has a one way valve (it can only hold vacuum) it uses a solenoid to control when this vacuum can pulls the bypass valve open.
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Post by Walperstyle »

One night after doing a lot of turbo math I started to think about an anti-lag system of my own.

My system used a 2nd Jet Turbine engine to spool a turbo. ZERO LAG.

I came up with a few diagrams (that are now deleted)

...but, someone actually build my idea. (the first car featured)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s
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Post by franman »

That is one ridiculous car, I can't imagine driving that thing!

Regarding your idea I was thinking about testing something along the lines of a pulse jet shaped combustion chamber pre turbo. Subis do something very similar :).
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Post by MRLuke »

Thanks for the answers so far. :)

I Thought I would start with a contribution before I ask more questions, lol, its a recent WRC 1.8T VW engine that runs ~220kw @ 5.5krpm / 600nm @ 3.25krpm

Image

Image

I know that you can add fuel to the manifold by retarding your timing but doesn't this eat your exhaust valves?

Is there a better way of adding fuel without it going through the engine?

As for adding another turbine, ALS basically turns your turbo into a jet engine anyway :lol:
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Post by franman »

Cutting ignition cylinder by cylinder usually works best but not many ems support this.

Very nice pictures by the way ;)
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Post by airman »

Walperstyle wrote:One night after doing a lot of turbo math I started to think about an anti-lag system of my own.

My system used a 2nd Jet Turbine engine to spool a turbo. ZERO LAG.

I came up with a few diagrams (that are now deleted)

...but, someone actually build my idea. (the first car featured)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s

Oh yes, I had actually seen another video of a hill climb or rally car a few months ago! Crazy stuff
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Post by 8-bit »

Antilag is not intended for street modfied cars because it can put excessive wear on parts that aren't specifically made for the heat, etc.
http://www.areasoundmusic.com

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Post by franman »

I agree anti lag is not easy on valves, manifolds and turbos however as long as your reasonable with the use and keep a close eye in egt's, afr, pressure and idealy shaft speed you can enjoy AL without many problems.
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Post by MRLuke »

Could you put up some pictures of your setup?
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Post by franman »

Happy to post pictures asap however i am currently working on a few projects in Thailand and will not be state side for another 6 months or so. I'll post up some pics of the SR20 E30 set up though as soon as i get started on the manifold/als set up ;)
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Post by MRLuke »

Like this:

http://www.homemadeturbo.com/attachment ... 1318565299

Doesnt really show the actual rocket pipe though, ive seen a picture somewhere but cant find one at the moment
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Post by airman »

airman wrote:Oh yes, I had actually seen another video of a hill climb or rally car a few months ago! Crazy stuff
Actually, I found it. It's the same car that I saw - I thought it was a rally car for same reason. It's called the Mannic Beattie. SOOO sick.
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Post by franman »

ya that car is a MONSTER
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Post by franman »

Always enjoyed this little shot

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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

Customer just sent me a video of his S14 ka-t on the antilag. I tuned this car back in 2007 or 08, great to see it's still getting properly abused!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzXLfmAEi9c
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by sil-coupe »

I don't want to get away from the topic because its so helpful but I want to see more pics of that ka24e-t in your link and any info if you've got it.
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

sil-coupe wrote:I don't want to get away from the topic because its so helpful but I want to see more pics of that ka24e-t in your link and any info if you've got it.
Sorry but which KA-T are you refering to? The S13 with the ALS or the S14 with the twin scroll GT3076R?
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

video of my VR4 on a mild antilag system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f577XUQgTcY


and a picture of the secondary air injection set up on my s13
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

Gave the KA-T some new goodies... I personally love the rally style Anti lag on the drift car, just keeps that turbo spinning while you lift. Rally style anti lag tuning and system set up explained.
This s13 has the secondary air injection kit I found this particular set up doesn't need much keep the turbo boost happy. On ignition cut set up at the track or under heavier use you do start to get a good bit more noise and flame. I like the ignition cut option as it helps keep heat/stress off the exhaust valves vs retarding the timing under ALS conditions.
Of course you will need to have a proper engine management system for tuning the ALS. Both the throttle bypass and secondary air injections can normally be installed and set up in 1 days work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVGKvi9o1W4 **this S13 is running the http://brewedmotors.com/antilag-seconda ... -rally-als

Part 2 Anti lag systems/tuning explained http://brewedmotors.com/blog/rally-styl ... uning.html
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

Update: 2jz running a combination of the Brewed Motors SAI and TBP antilag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmIvBw_AHI
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by MRLuke »

Bumping this up as its rare to be able to talk to somebody who actually has one of these systems working.

This picture is pretty informative

Image

But can you explain what the "boost can" is for? Its not shown as part of the kit on the image above.

Also when connecting into the intercooler pipework, should the connection angle back towards the turbo or towards the throttle?

Are you using "normal" stainless steel manifolds? Any failures? How much boost do you get off throttle?
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Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion

Post by franman »

Vacuum can can be used to control the valve via solenoid opening and closing. (Not always used or required though.)
Manifolds are normally Velocity Element or full race (thick wall tuning is key.
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