Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
For everyone who's car currently breaths fire and everyone who aspires to it. Figure this would be a great place to do some brain storming regarding different ALS.
My personal cars all have some sort of ALS and most of our customers have started to request it. Don't get me wrong while ALSystems work GREAT, they also get things extremely hot very quickly and can destroy parts if not used reasonably and monitored closely!
Here is a good chunk of information i put together to help explain of the 2 more common and refined Anti lag systems/parts, enjoy. *good pics, video and diagram in the link*
http://brewed-motorsports.blogspot.com/ ... a-als.html
And of course a couple pictures of the good stuff.
I personally run AEM EMS for tuning on my personal ka-t, 4g63 and sr20. All of them are set up with mild antilag, the 2 nissans will soon have a new secondary air induction system pre turbo as well for track use only of course.
questions, comments and most of all IDEAS are more than welcome! (Keep it positive, same as boost pressure)
PS one of my ka-t customers Nate with the twinscroll GT3076 Full Race kit S14 should be able to post up a picture or video of his cars drag style ALS which provides a very nice flame we'll see if he stumbles onto this thread haha.
My personal cars all have some sort of ALS and most of our customers have started to request it. Don't get me wrong while ALSystems work GREAT, they also get things extremely hot very quickly and can destroy parts if not used reasonably and monitored closely!
Here is a good chunk of information i put together to help explain of the 2 more common and refined Anti lag systems/parts, enjoy. *good pics, video and diagram in the link*
http://brewed-motorsports.blogspot.com/ ... a-als.html
And of course a couple pictures of the good stuff.
I personally run AEM EMS for tuning on my personal ka-t, 4g63 and sr20. All of them are set up with mild antilag, the 2 nissans will soon have a new secondary air induction system pre turbo as well for track use only of course.
questions, comments and most of all IDEAS are more than welcome! (Keep it positive, same as boost pressure)
PS one of my ka-t customers Nate with the twinscroll GT3076 Full Race kit S14 should be able to post up a picture or video of his cars drag style ALS which provides a very nice flame we'll see if he stumbles onto this thread haha.
Blog post started off really well but I was expecting a page 2,3,4 where you went into more detail of what you actually run on your cars and how you make them work.
Im interested in the "rally style" ALS system.
At its very simplest form can you use a wastegate in the hot pipe to feed the exhaust manifold pre turbo?
What pressure do you set the wastegate to so that it opens and closes at the right times?
Is the only way to add additional fuel by using a fancy / separate ecu?
Why does the Mitsubishi system have a vacuum tank? How does it work? Pros/cons?
Im interested in the "rally style" ALS system.
At its very simplest form can you use a wastegate in the hot pipe to feed the exhaust manifold pre turbo?
What pressure do you set the wastegate to so that it opens and closes at the right times?
Is the only way to add additional fuel by using a fancy / separate ecu?
Why does the Mitsubishi system have a vacuum tank? How does it work? Pros/cons?
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Ah sorry, actually quite a few people have been asking for more. I will be sure there are a few more ALS posts in the future but i want more pictures and video to share before i go into to much more detail.
Regarding your questions;
This is all be for secondary air injection ALS (common rally style)
A bypass valve (connecting the compressor outlet to pre turbo exhaust) just need something that you can open and close as desired that will take the heat/pressure.
(Waste gates can be made to work, Mitsu uses a unique little valve i pictured)
A way to control when the valve will open and close (this is where the vacuum canister comes into play on the mitsu diagram)
A way to tune: This is the trickiest part, many ECU's/EMS can handle everything you need. Some however can not and you have to "work around" the missing features/tables.
Things to tune and keep a close eye on while using ALS
ignition timing
fuel/afr
bypass valve control
EGT's
turbo shaft speed
PRE throttle body pressure
Pre turbo exhaust manifold pressure
Thanks for the post and the questions my friend.
Regarding your questions;
This is all be for secondary air injection ALS (common rally style)
A bypass valve (connecting the compressor outlet to pre turbo exhaust) just need something that you can open and close as desired that will take the heat/pressure.
(Waste gates can be made to work, Mitsu uses a unique little valve i pictured)
A way to control when the valve will open and close (this is where the vacuum canister comes into play on the mitsu diagram)
A way to tune: This is the trickiest part, many ECU's/EMS can handle everything you need. Some however can not and you have to "work around" the missing features/tables.
Things to tune and keep a close eye on while using ALS
ignition timing
fuel/afr
bypass valve control
EGT's
turbo shaft speed
PRE throttle body pressure
Pre turbo exhaust manifold pressure
Thanks for the post and the questions my friend.
Thank you for the reply
How does the vacuum tank work to control the valve? I would have expected the pressure to be the same as the rest of the post compressor pipework?
Standard turbo setup
When the throttle is open:
Exhaust manifold pressure is >1bar?
Post Compressor is >1bar?
When the throttle closes
Exhaust manifold pressure decreases? Vacuum spike then settles?
Post Compressor pressure spikes then settles?
########
Is the purpose of the vacuum tank to increase the time taken for the boost spike to settle?
########
With ALS
Open thottle:
~ same pressure, control valve shut
Closed throttle:
Post compressor spike and exhaust manifold vacuum combine to open air valve?
Pressure in manifold and post compressor would then be the same how does the valve stay open?
Throttle re-opened:
Creates vacuum spike post compressor to shut valve?
#####
Im stuck now.
1. Why does the valve stay open under closed throttle? Aren't the pressures the same in each pipe?
2. When you reapply the throttle how does the valve shut? What is to stop the air ignoring your engine?
How does the vacuum tank work to control the valve? I would have expected the pressure to be the same as the rest of the post compressor pipework?
Standard turbo setup
When the throttle is open:
Exhaust manifold pressure is >1bar?
Post Compressor is >1bar?
When the throttle closes
Exhaust manifold pressure decreases? Vacuum spike then settles?
Post Compressor pressure spikes then settles?
########
Is the purpose of the vacuum tank to increase the time taken for the boost spike to settle?
########
With ALS
Open thottle:
~ same pressure, control valve shut
Closed throttle:
Post compressor spike and exhaust manifold vacuum combine to open air valve?
Pressure in manifold and post compressor would then be the same how does the valve stay open?
Throttle re-opened:
Creates vacuum spike post compressor to shut valve?
#####
Im stuck now.
1. Why does the valve stay open under closed throttle? Aren't the pressures the same in each pipe?
2. When you reapply the throttle how does the valve shut? What is to stop the air ignoring your engine?
Ignore the above,
On reviewing the diagram I see that the control feed for the air valve is taken after the throttle?
This would mean that it will see vacuum whenever the throttle is closed and boost as soon as it opens? I guess that makes it quite straight forward then.
Only other hurdle is how do you inject fuel into the manifold? Cant imagine injectors would want to get that hot and I dont fancy having a high pressure fuel pipe next to a glowing manifold :O
On reviewing the diagram I see that the control feed for the air valve is taken after the throttle?
This would mean that it will see vacuum whenever the throttle is closed and boost as soon as it opens? I guess that makes it quite straight forward then.
Only other hurdle is how do you inject fuel into the manifold? Cant imagine injectors would want to get that hot and I dont fancy having a high pressure fuel pipe next to a glowing manifold :O
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
The exhaust manifold will always have at least some positive pressure. (higher load, higher pressure, lower load less pressure) and i don't know of anyone that has tried to run an injector or rail anywhere near the exhaust manifold for anti lag but you do not need to.
the vacuum canister for the evo's has a one way valve (it can only hold vacuum) it uses a solenoid to control when this vacuum can pulls the bypass valve open.
the vacuum canister for the evo's has a one way valve (it can only hold vacuum) it uses a solenoid to control when this vacuum can pulls the bypass valve open.
- Walperstyle
- Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
- Posts: 2517
- Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 2:32 pm
- Location: Red Deer
One night after doing a lot of turbo math I started to think about an anti-lag system of my own.
My system used a 2nd Jet Turbine engine to spool a turbo. ZERO LAG.
I came up with a few diagrams (that are now deleted)
...but, someone actually build my idea. (the first car featured)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s
My system used a 2nd Jet Turbine engine to spool a turbo. ZERO LAG.
I came up with a few diagrams (that are now deleted)
...but, someone actually build my idea. (the first car featured)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
That is one ridiculous car, I can't imagine driving that thing!
Regarding your idea I was thinking about testing something along the lines of a pulse jet shaped combustion chamber pre turbo. Subis do something very similar .
Regarding your idea I was thinking about testing something along the lines of a pulse jet shaped combustion chamber pre turbo. Subis do something very similar .
Last edited by franman on Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thanks for the answers so far.
I Thought I would start with a contribution before I ask more questions, lol, its a recent WRC 1.8T VW engine that runs ~220kw @ 5.5krpm / 600nm @ 3.25krpm
I know that you can add fuel to the manifold by retarding your timing but doesn't this eat your exhaust valves?
Is there a better way of adding fuel without it going through the engine?
As for adding another turbine, ALS basically turns your turbo into a jet engine anyway
I Thought I would start with a contribution before I ask more questions, lol, its a recent WRC 1.8T VW engine that runs ~220kw @ 5.5krpm / 600nm @ 3.25krpm
I know that you can add fuel to the manifold by retarding your timing but doesn't this eat your exhaust valves?
Is there a better way of adding fuel without it going through the engine?
As for adding another turbine, ALS basically turns your turbo into a jet engine anyway
Walperstyle wrote:One night after doing a lot of turbo math I started to think about an anti-lag system of my own.
My system used a 2nd Jet Turbine engine to spool a turbo. ZERO LAG.
I came up with a few diagrams (that are now deleted)
...but, someone actually build my idea. (the first car featured)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ee9H93uvYRo&t=25s
Oh yes, I had actually seen another video of a hill climb or rally car a few months ago! Crazy stuff
R.I.P. 1990 Red Hatch - DOHC 5 speed // CP 9:1 - Eagle Rods - Clevite - ARP // Holset HX35 - 20psi daily - MSPNP2
8-bit wrote:You could spend your life building a ladder to the moon, or work for 5 years to pay for a trip.
Antilag is not intended for street modfied cars because it can put excessive wear on parts that aren't specifically made for the heat, etc.
http://www.areasoundmusic.com
*Nistune/Calum ECU tuning advisor
Thinking about E-Mance? Think twice and read this:
viewtopic.php?t=45057&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
WARNING: Emance is now using an alias as ECUTUNERGUY and REFLASHPROS. Spread the word.
*Nistune/Calum ECU tuning advisor
Thinking about E-Mance? Think twice and read this:
viewtopic.php?t=45057&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
WARNING: Emance is now using an alias as ECUTUNERGUY and REFLASHPROS. Spread the word.
Like this:
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/attachment ... 1318565299
Doesnt really show the actual rocket pipe though, ive seen a picture somewhere but cant find one at the moment
http://www.homemadeturbo.com/attachment ... 1318565299
Doesnt really show the actual rocket pipe though, ive seen a picture somewhere but cant find one at the moment
Actually, I found it. It's the same car that I saw - I thought it was a rally car for same reason. It's called the Mannic Beattie. SOOO sick.airman wrote:Oh yes, I had actually seen another video of a hill climb or rally car a few months ago! Crazy stuff
R.I.P. 1990 Red Hatch - DOHC 5 speed // CP 9:1 - Eagle Rods - Clevite - ARP // Holset HX35 - 20psi daily - MSPNP2
8-bit wrote:You could spend your life building a ladder to the moon, or work for 5 years to pay for a trip.
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
Customer just sent me a video of his S14 ka-t on the antilag. I tuned this car back in 2007 or 08, great to see it's still getting properly abused!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzXLfmAEi9c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzXLfmAEi9c
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
I don't want to get away from the topic because its so helpful but I want to see more pics of that ka24e-t in your link and any info if you've got it.
"Build it, have fun with it, break it, and rebuild it." Brian Parker
"Shiny fittings are for ricers, race cars have zip ties and hose clamps." Barton Black
"Shiny fittings are for ricers, race cars have zip ties and hose clamps." Barton Black
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
Sorry but which KA-T are you refering to? The S13 with the ALS or the S14 with the twin scroll GT3076R?sil-coupe wrote:I don't want to get away from the topic because its so helpful but I want to see more pics of that ka24e-t in your link and any info if you've got it.
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
video of my VR4 on a mild antilag system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f577XUQgTcY
and a picture of the secondary air injection set up on my s13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f577XUQgTcY
and a picture of the secondary air injection set up on my s13
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
Gave the KA-T some new goodies... I personally love the rally style Anti lag on the drift car, just keeps that turbo spinning while you lift. Rally style anti lag tuning and system set up explained.
This s13 has the secondary air injection kit I found this particular set up doesn't need much keep the turbo boost happy. On ignition cut set up at the track or under heavier use you do start to get a good bit more noise and flame. I like the ignition cut option as it helps keep heat/stress off the exhaust valves vs retarding the timing under ALS conditions.
Of course you will need to have a proper engine management system for tuning the ALS. Both the throttle bypass and secondary air injections can normally be installed and set up in 1 days work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVGKvi9o1W4 **this S13 is running the http://brewedmotors.com/antilag-seconda ... -rally-als
Part 2 Anti lag systems/tuning explained http://brewedmotors.com/blog/rally-styl ... uning.html
This s13 has the secondary air injection kit I found this particular set up doesn't need much keep the turbo boost happy. On ignition cut set up at the track or under heavier use you do start to get a good bit more noise and flame. I like the ignition cut option as it helps keep heat/stress off the exhaust valves vs retarding the timing under ALS conditions.
Of course you will need to have a proper engine management system for tuning the ALS. Both the throttle bypass and secondary air injections can normally be installed and set up in 1 days work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVGKvi9o1W4 **this S13 is running the http://brewedmotors.com/antilag-seconda ... -rally-als
Part 2 Anti lag systems/tuning explained http://brewedmotors.com/blog/rally-styl ... uning.html
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
Update: 2jz running a combination of the Brewed Motors SAI and TBP antilag.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmIvBw_AHI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKmIvBw_AHI
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
Bumping this up as its rare to be able to talk to somebody who actually has one of these systems working.
This picture is pretty informative
But can you explain what the "boost can" is for? Its not shown as part of the kit on the image above.
Also when connecting into the intercooler pipework, should the connection angle back towards the turbo or towards the throttle?
Are you using "normal" stainless steel manifolds? Any failures? How much boost do you get off throttle?
This picture is pretty informative
But can you explain what the "boost can" is for? Its not shown as part of the kit on the image above.
Also when connecting into the intercooler pipework, should the connection angle back towards the turbo or towards the throttle?
Are you using "normal" stainless steel manifolds? Any failures? How much boost do you get off throttle?
- franman
- Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
- Posts: 384
- Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:08 pm
- Location: Bangkok, South Korea, phoenix, missoula
Re: Anti Lag aka ALS explained and discussion
Vacuum can can be used to control the valve via solenoid opening and closing. (Not always used or required though.)
Manifolds are normally Velocity Element or full race (thick wall tuning is key.
Manifolds are normally Velocity Element or full race (thick wall tuning is key.