Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

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aarongdl
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Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by aarongdl »

I'm looking to start my first turbo build over the winter with my 240! Not my first turbo vehicle, but let's just say I'm not a fan of fwd!

Anyways, I've been working on a list, and was wondering for some advice from some of you more experienced guys. I don't plan on cheaping out, and I'm certainly not in a hurry to finish. (Though I would like to at least get the engine completely rebuilt by December and have it broke in awhile I acquire the rest of my parts.) I'm aiming for around 400whp, but I'd like to hear from you guys!

CP Pistons 9.0:1 CR/Arias (which and why?) I know with CP I'll need to get it bored over a bit.
Eagle Forged H-Beam Connecting Rods
Cometic HG
ARP Headstuds
Mishimoto Rad
CX Racing piping/intercooler (I'm only aiming for a reliable 400, plus is ALWAYS better, but I think this will suffice)
CX Racing top mount manifold (suggestions are always welcome here)
ACL bearings
740cc DW Injectors
Garrett GT3071r 0.63 w/ ext WG
Tial 44mm WG
Blitz BOV

As for standalone, looking at Nistune. I'm looking to replace the transmission with a z32 with suspension work as well, but that will come later. As of right now, I'd like to get an idea of how to do the internals, get the engine broke in and then the turbo and a tune.

All comments will be taken into consideration guys, and you'll have to bare with me because this is the first turbo setup I'll actually be piecing together myself. As far as what the car is going to be used for, it'll probably be driven on the weekends, maybe track days once or twice a year if I ever actually start attending! thanks alot!
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by airman »

It looks like a good, solid start to a build. As far as CP/Arias, you can't go wrong with either although there may be a difference in the alloys used; one may be ever-so-slightly superior but I am not sure. If you are sticking with stock bore pistons, I do not see why you would need to have the engine bored regardless of manufacturer. If you are going with oversized pistons and plan on boring the block, take the pistons with you to the machine shop and they can match the desired clearances exactly.

Nistune is a good place to start and learn tuning. If I remember correctly I spent about $450 for the hardware, software, and the cable, reusing the ECU that came with the car. I did the soldering work myself. If you are picking one up second-hand, you'll surely save some money. I ended up wanting more from Nistune and inevitably ended up with an MSPNP2. It's still a few hundred more than a Nistune setup, but it is miles more superior in my eyes. There is nothing wrong with Nistune for what it's worth, but Megasquirt is definitely worth the consideration :)

You may be hard-pressed to find 400hp from 740cc injectors, if anything you will be close to 100% duty cycle which leaves you little to no salvation in an event where you overboost for whatever reason. It may be better to look for something larger if you want the setup to be 400hp-capable from the beginning.

As far as break-in, the majority of this forum supports the Motoman break-in method. There is a webpage dedicated to this. I don't recall the specifics exactly, but the gist of it is to load the engine from the get-go (the first 20-30 miles) and use vacuum pressure while decelerating to help seat the rings, changing the oil frequently.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

I don't think he has it on this page, but a lot of us here like to run the engine at idle in the garage for a quick shake down. Let it get up to operating temp, check for leaks, bleed the cooling system, etc. Very the revs a bit and make sure everything seems okay. Change the oil, and then go out for Motoman.

The tune will be something you either have someone do for you on a dyno, or by reading a lot and learning to do this yourself on the street.

Best of luck!
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by aarongdl »

Thanks for the input! I figured I'd be going with a Walbro 255 for fuel, that or a 320lph. I'm not entirely sure on that. The duty cycle on the injectors was a concern, but I've been under the impression 740cc would be enough. I'll most likely look into a larger injector, maybe ID1000s. I want the build to be reliable and I'd like room for improvement, but I think 400 or so will be enough. What kind of power would I be making a 3071r? As far as fuel management, I can do a DIY Megaquirt.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by Greaser »

cams?
Ported head?

if not then 300 is all youll get on 93 octane with a 3071. cams and a ported head MAYBE 350 with 93. Higher octane you can max out the turbo at about 420.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by aarongdl »

Really? I figured a 3071 would put me pretty close to 400. Not sure if cams would be needed or not tbh. I figured a 3071 with a .63 or even an .84 would be enough to hit 400.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by Greaser »

Not on pump gas with stock cams. It might do it on a 2240lb dynojet roller, but not out on the street w the hood closed without pinging. You change the fuel youre using, then youre at the limit of the turbo and yea you can make 400 wheel.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by aarongdl »

So you're saying for 400 I'll need to convert to e85 and change my cams? Or just concert to e85?

I've been under the impression it would be possible to make 400 with a 3071r or maybe 3076r with 93.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by supakat »

93 and meth.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by Greaser »

on 93 its my opinion for a "reliable" meaning no knock 400rwhp on the street means a professionally ported head, cams, and tuned cam gears. The tuner should be well versed in knock detection and correction strategies.

3076 is still t3 framed and marginally better than a 3071.

If you don't have access to professional tuning/head porting/cams ect and plan on tuning yourself and require 400rwhp then switch to e85. Its' tuning window is far larger than 93 octane.


People may disagree and have proof of 400 on 93 with whatever turbo on stock cams. I can assure you they have all had headgasket problems.


as for 93 and meth.....RELYING on the meth to control detonation you better be making sure every cylinder has the same amount, every time you go into boost. That means individual 02's per cylinder and an ems that can support it. Then you have to have failsafes in place should a jet get clogged or a line break. That "system" right there is $4k in parts alone. This is all based on the word "RELIABLE" mind you..

My car has all these components so im speaking from experience. Individual cylinder 02's, individual cylinder egt's, overall system 02, bosch knock sensor, aem v2 ems, aem aq1 datalogger. $6,000 of electronics in a $500 car. But this is what i do for a living is tuning.


I decided to try and slam home the concept of reliable/durable.

Sensors:
02 cyl 1
02 cyl 2
02 cyl 3
02 cyl 4
egt cyl1
egt cyl2
egt cyl3
egt cyl4
system 02
fuel pressure
oil pressure
oil temp
trans line pressure
trans temp
driveshaft speed
front wheel speed
Gmeter
crankcase pressure
bosch knock sensor

electronic components
4 channel 02 controller
4 channel egt amp
1 channel 02 controller
8 channel datalogger
2 stages of nitrous

Protection strategies:
oil pressure rev limit
fuel pressure rev limit
afr rev limit
knock detection/reduction
wheel spin differential speed traction control


All this for a car that makes 240rwhp @10psi on 93 octane with a ported head on a built motor with stock s14 cams. Its made more with other fuels but i hope you get the point of how far you can go to be "reliable". In the summer it cant handle any more boost, just pings away and if you pull timing to correct for it you dont make any more power.
Last edited by Greaser on Fri Oct 02, 2015 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by supakat »

Speak it Greaser. When put into perspective like that, it makes it easier for people to switch to corn. Which is one of the main reasons I probably do a TT setup cost and more parts to break.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by nissanfanatic »

I always stuck to 1bar of boost on pump gas, which made 350whp on both of my turbo setups on stock internals. If you want more power past what your car makes at 1 bar, an increase in volumetric efficiency is the only way to go reliably IMO. I always attributed my car's power at 1bar to good exhaust manifold design (GroundZero and then Full Race) as well as an Enthalpy tune.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by aarongdl »

Thanks for putting it into some sort of perspective, greaser. I'm not opposed to e85 at any means, but I believe one gas station around here sells it. I want this build to be done right. 400 is kind of a dreamers number, I'm sure I'd be happy with 300-350, but one can dream, right?

Would you recommend the 3076r over a 3071r, or is there anything else you would recommend? I'm wanting to hopefully have the engine rebuilt with the internals it needs by the winter, and to save up some for the rest of the setup while I break it in.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by adamky »

Greaser wrote:as for 93 and meth.....RELYING on the meth to control detonation you better be making sure every cylinder has the same amount, every time you go into boost. That means individual 02's per cylinder and an ems that can support it. Then you have to have failsafes in place should a jet get clogged or a line break. That "system" right there is $4k in parts alone. This is all based on the word "RELIABLE" mind you..

My car has all these components so im speaking from experience. Individual cylinder 02's, individual cylinder egt's, overall system 02, bosch knock sensor, aem v2 ems, aem aq1 datalogger. $6,000 of electronics in a $500 car. But this is what i do for a living is tuning.


I decided to try and slam home the concept of reliable/durable.

Sensors:
02 cyl 1
02 cyl 2
02 cyl 3
02 cyl 4
egt cyl1
egt cyl2
egt cyl3
egt cyl4
system 02
fuel pressure
oil pressure
oil temp
trans line pressure
trans temp
driveshaft speed
front wheel speed
Gmeter
crankcase pressure
bosch knock sensor

electronic components
4 channel 02 controller
4 channel egt amp
1 channel 02 controller
8 channel datalogger
2 stages of nitrous

Protection strategies:
oil pressure rev limit
fuel pressure rev limit
afr rev limit
knock detection/reduction
wheel spin differential speed traction control


All this for a car that makes 240rwhp @10psi on 93 octane with a ported head on a built motor with stock s14 cams. Its made more with other fuels but i hope you get the point of how far you can go to be "reliable". In the summer it cant handle any more boost, just pings away and if you pull timing to correct for it you dont make any more power.
Wow, Greaser! That's a crazy setup. Do you have pictures of your car online anywhere? I'm curious what all of that looks like and how you fit all of those sensors on each exhaust runner. Are you running a stock Nissan automatic trans on this thing?

Also, your post has me re-thinking my current plans for my turbo setup. I was previously running a M62 supercharger on E85 with a very small bit of water/meth. I'm now switching to turbo and I was thinking of keeping my current 740cc injectors and doing a direct port water-meth setup with a nozzle in each intake runner. The plan was to run 93oct up to 14 psi and use the water/meth setup for when I want to run 17-18 psi. Now, I'm thinking I should go ahead and install my upgraded fuel system so I can run E85 and just ditch the water/meth setup.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by Greaser »

i was going to pm this but its informative for everyone so:


no pics vids yet as i just finished everything i wanted to do to it. I'll get you something shortly. The trans is stock everything except valvebody has a trans-go shift kit installed with some other tweaks to get it shifting like an R35 gtr. 250psi line pressure and .2 second shift times.

e85 shouldnt need meth(depending on CR), and if you do install it and plan to tune on it things blow up quick when its not there and its supposed to be. And with a direct port meth injection its even more important to datalog EVERY time you boost. With a blower you should be really looking at [blower] RPM first and boost second. A62 might be near its redline at that boost pressure. Put a 112 on it from a cobra.

You've already been running e85 and are comfortable with its downsides. Superchargers require a huge tuning window, something e85 gives you. Keep the meth installed if you need it.

Pm me on what you were calling a fuel system upgrade, you may not need to do it.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by aarongdl »

Greaser, what would your opinion be on me switching to ID1000s if I convert to e85? I went driving around today and found a few stations locally that sold e85, so it hopefully won't be a problem.

Do you have any recommendations on cams? I'm not looking to rev an insane amount, and to be honest the car will just be something to drive on the weekend and mess around in. Track day if I ever decide to go. I think I'll be plenty happy with around 400. What would you change on my current list to achieve that goal? I'm just looking for opinions as I plan on buying parts for the rebuild early November, and then hopefully turbo setup piece by piece shortly thereafter.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by Greaser »

id1000s are awesome.

cams, ah heres where the snowballing starts. This is what separates the "first build" from the professionally assembled and tuned setup, some beginners throw valvetrain parts at a ka and get mad at poor results and blame it on some mythical snake oil in the KA24. You really need to start learning about valvetrain mechanics and problems the ka has. choosing cams is really choosing whether or not you have access to clearance the shim bucket bore. Meaning machine shop or a porting bit. Anything over .390" lift you should check for clearance at where the cam lobe swings near the bucket bores.

If you are trying to make power and actually care about going the extra mile, get adjustable cam gears and max out advance on the intake and retard on the exhaust. Get that intake valve to open as soon as possible without hitting the pistons and the exhaust valve to close as late as possible without valve to valve or valve to piston. I've never seen valve to valve problems on a ka but whenever you do cams on a KA you could have intake valve to piston even with stock gears. Check out this thread http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=61864


All of this revolves around when you said reliable. Reliable to me means i don't have to pop the hood except to change the oil and basic maintenance for 5-10 years. My **** "reliable" right now, but its taken $6k easy in electronics, 20 years tuning experience and 15 years engine assembly experience. Its important to note its also the first time I can say this. Without ANY part of that, i'd be pulling the head because I blew the HG, or bent a valve, spun a bearing, or any problem any of us have ever had modifying an engine.

Making power means a-lot of experience based knowledge and work. **** aint easy
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by silfourty »

Its been a long time since I've been on here, but as I am trying to rebuild my setup, I have run into some snags.

I have been having a hell of a time finding a decent manifold. I have a rev-hard that has cracked, so I was going to replace it with another Chinese cast iron piece...it hasn't worked out. The casting looks a little better than the RH, but the mounting holes are not properly drilled. The manifold will not even seat to the head due to interference from being drilled wrong. Also, the holes in the RH as well as the knock off are round and need to be port matched....if they are even close enough to being lined up. I lost my ass on this too because the ebay seller's warranty was only 30 days and they refused to work with me since I waited more than a month before I found out it wouldn't fit. now I have a pretty cast iron door stop!

I took my licks on that one and moved on to CXRacing 11 gauge stainless fabbed piece. I have to admit, for the price I was sorely disappointed in the piece. The outside looked pretty good, but in the collector area there was obvious welding issues that were going to cause problems. That being said, I was willing to weld a little to make a usable piece....until I tried a dry fit on the head. Sure the bolt holes went on like they were supposed to, but thats when I noticed the flange on the manifold that mates to the block was upside down! It would not be a big deal if the holes were shaped more like the ports in the head, but again, as the cast manifold, the holes were round, which would need port matched as well, however, the flange being upside down makes it impossible to do so. Now, the top mount manifold they offer which puts the turbo much further forward seems to have the flange on the right way, so you might have luck with that. After 3 weeks of emailing back and forth, CXRacing FINALLY agreed to give me a full refund including return shipping.

I think if you want a true bolt on quality manifold youre going to have to pony-up and get the high end stuff. I just don't have the funds, so I am stuck just trying to get my crappy cracked rev-hard welded up and settling for less performance and leaky gaskets.

The next best manifold I have seen was from enjuku for $750+.....I think I'll go buy a welder and start fabbing manifolds myself for that kind of money!
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by adamky »

Greaser wrote:If you are trying to make power and actually care about going the extra mile, get adjustable cam gears and max out advance on the intake and retard on the exhaust. Get that intake valve to open as soon as possible without hitting the pistons and the exhaust valve to close as late as possible without valve to valve or valve to piston. I've never seen valve to valve problems on a ka but whenever you do cams on a KA you could have intake valve to piston even with stock gears. Check out this thread http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=40&t=61864
I've been meaning to ask you about this. Advancing the intake and retarding the exhaust will actually increase overlap. As the exhaust stroke is completing, the exhaust valve will be closing later (retard), and the intake cam will be opening earlier (advance). This is the opposite of what is often recommended for forced induction. It is said that you want very little overlap so that you don't end up pushing exhaust back into the intake, due to the exhaust having more pressure in it than the intake. Can you clarify why you would recommend the opposite?



Also, now that I've pulled my water/meth kit out of the trunk, I have room for a 5 gal air tank..! Although I doubt I'll do it, I'd like to do a PCV setup like yours one day. I'm guessing that installing the front and rear main seals in reverse is to help prevent them from getting pulled in due to vacuum? Did you have to vacuum/boost leak test your entire motor after sealing up the valve cover hole? I imagine that even with the valve cover sealed up, there are other areas that may leak under 20 in/hg, or maybe not?
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by Greaser »

More rambling......

Because it makes real tangible noticeable power. NA turbocharged supercharged whatever aspiration.

Stick your hand out of your car at 60mph what happens? It moves your hand. Air is heavy. Get it moving and it has kinetic energy just like everything else. Fresh air is heavier than air that's gone through a combustion process. Now add RPM to this.

From the factory and even most aftermarket cams for the ka open the intake valve near 0tdc the earliest i've seen is 8deg btdc. The intake valve isnt even open by the time the piston is starting its way back down the bore. The pistons greatest motion rate is half way down the bore and the camshaft still isnt at full lift. Cam timing like this offers a smooth running engine, easy idle quality, half way decent acceleration and fuel economy.

Open the intake valve 20deg BTDC (mild btw!) and now the air has a chance to fill part of the chamber it didnt have time to as well as push out some of the combusted air from the last cycle. In some cases you'll have the camshaft at full lift at the highest piston speed Dont forget its under extreme pressures/flow rates. Hard to stop air once it gets going. Cam timing like this offers horrible idle quality, awesome acceleration and I stopped checking fuel economy when trying to make power.

This is exactly why (among other reasons) manufacturers came up with Variable Cam Timing. I can make it idle like a street car, accelerate like a race car, and get good gas mileage? Yes. This is also why i'm trying to come up with VCT for a KA.

Lemme see if I can find some dyno charts over the years. Turbo cars picking up 500-1000rpm of spool, make 100more hp at lets say 4000rpm. Think back, theres a reason OEM's use it. Since this is a static system, youre going to lose something unlike OEM's.

GENERALLY i see gains from 2k-6k and loses from 6k and higher. Generally the high overlap doesnt like 6k and above. But really how often are you above 6k???

Let me see if i can find some dyno charts from over the years. I have mentioned before i live on 2 dynos right? haha



i forgot about the vac questions

The seals are in backwards because as vacuum is applied the seal gets tighter, not weaker with a tendency to leak and make a wierd vibrating noise since that lip of rubber is now oscilating (leaking) against the crankshaft at 2khz. My itb motor made this noise, you could only hear it after shutting off the engine and the vacuum was high.

I didnt test for leaks because i have a vacuum gauge inside the car connected to the tank. It takes probably a full minute to deplete the vacuum from the tank. If i remove the oil cap(which is tough) while the engine is running you hear the air rush into the motor and the idle comes up. The only place for any leak is the dipstick tube, front covers, valve cover and oil pan.

You inspired me to make a video to explain it all so this weekend i'll go over the car showing all the little tidbits (theres alot) and you'll understand it alot better.

I dont think i mentioned the sequentially shifted auto project is done and working.
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by adamky »

While I won't be hitting the dyno any time soon, your comment makes me feel better about setting my cams up to the JWT cam card (as opposed to trying to take out some of the overlap). Ramble on, brother!
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Re: Starting my KA24DE-t build soon. Advice needed!

Post by adamky »

Greaser wrote:You inspired me to make a video to explain it all so this weekend i'll go over the car showing all the little tidbits (theres alot) and you'll understand it alot better.

I dont think i mentioned the sequentially shifted auto project is done and working.
Let's see that video!
Wiseco/Eagle, JWT S1 cams, BC valve springs, PT5857, ID1700 injectors, SR20DET ECU w/ Nismotronic, COP conversion with LS ignition coils, etc, etc...
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