How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams
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you dont like the lopey idle? i thought everyone loved a lopey idle. if they are indeed bc v2's then they are supposed to have some lope at idle. If you have more power all around.. then thats a plus right?
also, it is weird that the JWT cam gears seem like they arent actually moving the cam an accurate amount. maybe someone should call them and tell them.
On a side note, I got my built motor ripped out this weekend and got the other stock block in its place. Powerwise there isnt much difference. My built block actually seemed to have a lot more up top.. but thats cause of the cams and 3 angle valve job prolly. One thing I've noticed is the exhaust tone difference. This stock block is WAY more quiet. One down side is it doesnt sound near as mean up top. My built block sounds like a beast up top. I have this engine in to be reliable.. so all that doesnt really matter. Just throught it was weird. I didn't think cams and a 3angle vj would make such a difference in the exhaust note.
also, it is weird that the JWT cam gears seem like they arent actually moving the cam an accurate amount. maybe someone should call them and tell them.
On a side note, I got my built motor ripped out this weekend and got the other stock block in its place. Powerwise there isnt much difference. My built block actually seemed to have a lot more up top.. but thats cause of the cams and 3 angle valve job prolly. One thing I've noticed is the exhaust tone difference. This stock block is WAY more quiet. One down side is it doesnt sound near as mean up top. My built block sounds like a beast up top. I have this engine in to be reliable.. so all that doesnt really matter. Just throught it was weird. I didn't think cams and a 3angle vj would make such a difference in the exhaust note.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
Well, it's also leaning out a lot with the radiator fan on, and the idle is all over the place. When the fan comes on, it will go lean and the idle will drop for a second or two, and then the idle will jump up to 1100 or so for a few seconds, and then drop back down. Then it repeats that over and over. I can deal with a little lope, but this is pretty annoying. I'm hoping it's just because my battery was a little drained after sitting for a week and the alternator is just struggling to charge it while also running the Taurus radiator fan (which draws a lot of amps).
As far as the cam gears not moving the cams an accurate amount, I'm not sure it's the fault of the JWT gears. As careful as we were, it's still hard to be super precise when the motor is in the car, and you've got a radiator fan shroud and other stuff in the way. If you notice, my duration on my exhaust cam was a few degrees longer after I adjusted the cams, so I'm assuming it is just an error on my part.
My exhaust tone is different now too, so I'm not too surprised that the stock block made yours quieter. Mine definitely sounds a little deeper and louder now.
As far as the cam gears not moving the cams an accurate amount, I'm not sure it's the fault of the JWT gears. As careful as we were, it's still hard to be super precise when the motor is in the car, and you've got a radiator fan shroud and other stuff in the way. If you notice, my duration on my exhaust cam was a few degrees longer after I adjusted the cams, so I'm assuming it is just an error on my part.
My exhaust tone is different now too, so I'm not too surprised that the stock block made yours quieter. Mine definitely sounds a little deeper and louder now.
Last edited by adamky on Tue Apr 06, 2010 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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well is was suprised that it made it this quiet. its like a night and day difference lol. ok back to the how to thread. we can continue this conversation in chat.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
- Walperstyle
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same as the v2's. if you dont feel comfortable setting it that tight then loosen it some, though you will lose some duration and lift. losing the duration is not that big of a deal with a turbo engine. Turbo engines do not require high duration to make power vs an N/A setup because a vacuum effect is not needed. You are pumping in the air, rather then trying to suck in as much as possible.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
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Here is mine (in works: editing in progress as I go)
LASH (largest space between cam/bucket shim when rotation of cam and frequent checking)
(in inches)
INTAKE----------------EXHAUST
0.011----------------- 0.011
0.013-----------------0.011
0.018 (holy crap) -------0.011
0.014------------------0.007-or less
0.015------------------0.007-or less
0.017------------------0.012
0.007-or less-----------0.007-or less
0.017------------------0.009
-----------------------------------------------------
SHIM SIZE/PENNY SIZE
(inches)
INTAKE ----------EXHAUST
0.088 -----------0.085
0.090-----------0.085
0.090-----------0.086
0.087-----------0.089
0.088-----------0.087
0.090-----------0.090
0.089-----------0.088
0.087-----------0.087
---------------------------------------------------------------
`the work zone`
INTAKE (inches)
1) 0.088+(0.011-0.008)=0.091=2.31mm = 13229-54F17 (2.30mm)
2) 0.090+(0.013-0.008)=0.095=2.41mm =13229-54F22 (2.40mm)
3) 0.090+(0.018-0.008)=0.100= (holy crap) = 2.54mm =13229-54F64
4) 0.087+(0.014-0.008)=0.093=2.36mm= 13229-54F20
5) 0.088+(0.015-0.008)=0.095=2.41mm=13229-54F22 (2.40mm)
6) 0.090+(0.017-0.008)=0.099=2.51mm=13229-54F62 (2.50mm)
7) 0.089 = leave alone = 2.26mm
8 ) 0.087+(0.017-0.008)=0.096=2.44mm=13229-54F24
EXHAUST (INCHES)
1) 0.085+(0.011-0.008)=0.088=2.24mm=13229-54F14
2) 0.085+(0.011-0.008)=0.088=2.24mm=13229-54F14
3) 0.086+(0.011-0.008)=0.089= 2.26mm=13229-54F15
4) 0.089 = leave alone = 2.26mm
5) 0.087 = leave alone = 2.21mm
6) 0.090+(0.012-0.008)=0.094= 2.39mm=13229-54F21( 2.38 )
7) 0.088 = leave alone = 2.24mm
8 ) 0.087+(0.009-0.008)=0.088=2.24mm=13229-54F14
now, just have to find shims to order that are even numbers closest to what that is.
PAGE 5 = part numbers!!! = http://jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf/CA ... KA24DE.PDF
unit converter I used : http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/lengt ... its=inches#
LASH (largest space between cam/bucket shim when rotation of cam and frequent checking)
(in inches)
INTAKE----------------EXHAUST
0.011----------------- 0.011
0.013-----------------0.011
0.018 (holy crap) -------0.011
0.014------------------0.007-or less
0.015------------------0.007-or less
0.017------------------0.012
0.007-or less-----------0.007-or less
0.017------------------0.009
-----------------------------------------------------
SHIM SIZE/PENNY SIZE
(inches)
INTAKE ----------EXHAUST
0.088 -----------0.085
0.090-----------0.085
0.090-----------0.086
0.087-----------0.089
0.088-----------0.087
0.090-----------0.090
0.089-----------0.088
0.087-----------0.087
---------------------------------------------------------------
`the work zone`
INTAKE (inches)
1) 0.088+(0.011-0.008)=0.091=2.31mm = 13229-54F17 (2.30mm)
2) 0.090+(0.013-0.008)=0.095=2.41mm =13229-54F22 (2.40mm)
3) 0.090+(0.018-0.008)=0.100= (holy crap) = 2.54mm =13229-54F64
4) 0.087+(0.014-0.008)=0.093=2.36mm= 13229-54F20
5) 0.088+(0.015-0.008)=0.095=2.41mm=13229-54F22 (2.40mm)
6) 0.090+(0.017-0.008)=0.099=2.51mm=13229-54F62 (2.50mm)
7) 0.089 = leave alone = 2.26mm
8 ) 0.087+(0.017-0.008)=0.096=2.44mm=13229-54F24
EXHAUST (INCHES)
1) 0.085+(0.011-0.008)=0.088=2.24mm=13229-54F14
2) 0.085+(0.011-0.008)=0.088=2.24mm=13229-54F14
3) 0.086+(0.011-0.008)=0.089= 2.26mm=13229-54F15
4) 0.089 = leave alone = 2.26mm
5) 0.087 = leave alone = 2.21mm
6) 0.090+(0.012-0.008)=0.094= 2.39mm=13229-54F21( 2.38 )
7) 0.088 = leave alone = 2.24mm
8 ) 0.087+(0.009-0.008)=0.088=2.24mm=13229-54F14
now, just have to find shims to order that are even numbers closest to what that is.
PAGE 5 = part numbers!!! = http://jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf/CA ... KA24DE.PDF
unit converter I used : http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/lengt ... its=inches#
Last edited by Walperstyle on Mon May 10, 2010 3:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
lol mine where the same way. go to courtesy nissan. it will take a while. it to me a month to get all of mine and they wont ship them till they all come in.
go to jim wolf's site for the part numbers you will need. some are for 240s. but i think after you get into the .088 or higher they turn into 2000 and up altima part numbers
go to jim wolf's site for the part numbers you will need. some are for 240s. but i think after you get into the .088 or higher they turn into 2000 and up altima part numbers
Last edited by ditchs14 on Wed May 12, 2010 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ok, so I Installed BC V3 cams last week and degreed them.
The exhaust cam was dead on straight from the beginning according to BC specification.
But the Intake cam caused me alot of problems, it was about 16degrees of from what BC recomends
So even with the JWT cam gear advanced fully it's at 3degrees ATDC. Should be at 3degrees BTDC
So how much will this affect the engine and what kind of affects will it have?
I guess the only way to get it to BC spec is to enlarge the hol for the pin abit?
The exhaust cam was dead on straight from the beginning according to BC specification.
But the Intake cam caused me alot of problems, it was about 16degrees of from what BC recomends
So even with the JWT cam gear advanced fully it's at 3degrees ATDC. Should be at 3degrees BTDC
So how much will this affect the engine and what kind of affects will it have?
I guess the only way to get it to BC spec is to enlarge the hol for the pin abit?
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Did you set your valve lash to .008" on the intake? Don't worry about the settings listed too much. It doesnt have to be exact. Cams are degreed to where you like the powerband. Give or take a little overlap is fine. Just set the cams where you make the most power where you want it. Start where you have it and go from there. With the large turbo that you have, you might actually benefit from having the intake open a little later.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
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alright cool. yah its weird that they are that far off. You could call BC and tell them about it.. but in all honesty, you might be better off where its set right now, because of the turbo you are running.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
- redpotatoes
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I read your post and it is very interesting and informative.
I want try to perfectly degree 248/248 (or maybe 248/232) cams swap on S14. I have a spare engine that I can play with on the engine stand. I have the proper tools, the only thing I am missing is JWT gears but I do have spare oem ones. Maybe something can be done with them (good measurement is a must and I won't be using the internet JWT templates which ain't accurate).
Any recommendations?
I want try to perfectly degree 248/248 (or maybe 248/232) cams swap on S14. I have a spare engine that I can play with on the engine stand. I have the proper tools, the only thing I am missing is JWT gears but I do have spare oem ones. Maybe something can be done with them (good measurement is a must and I won't be using the internet JWT templates which ain't accurate).
Any recommendations?
KA24DET GT2871R .86 Setup:
viewtopic.php?t=44222
viewtopic.php?t=44222
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JWT is the easiest. They will get you close and $140 isnt bad at all. There are other ways you could do it, but they are more complicated. More precise but more complicated for sure. Other methods involve slotting the gear and either making an offset pin or some other way to keep the gear from moving under high torque loads.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
- redpotatoes
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You are probably right, JWT gears would be easier but they seem to be somewhat hard to find. I know someone who is selling replicate JWT gears that were done professionnally by a machine shop with the original JWT gears as a template. I am just no sure if I should buy them.
KA24DET GT2871R .86 Setup:
viewtopic.php?t=44222
viewtopic.php?t=44222
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how are they hard to find? just order them from JWT. http://www.jimwolftechnology.com
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
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I thought they were discontinued. I might grab some eventually.
KA24DET GT2871R .86 Setup:
viewtopic.php?t=44222
viewtopic.php?t=44222
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http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/custom ... p?PartID=9
where did you hear that they are discontinued?
where did you hear that they are discontinued?
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
To anyone reading this in the future - also the OP should revise in the orginal post.As per the FSM the equasion to find your new shim measurement is: New Shims= Old shim + (lash - .35mm) Add note 2/27/10: To find the new shim for aftermarket cams with different then stock lash, use the new equasion I have listed at the bottom of this post.
So, for example my new #8 intake shim will be 2.21mm + ( .2794mm - .35mm) =N So, my new shim shoud be 2.134mm.
But since shims only come in even numbers, You want to round either up or down according to the last numbers or numbers. >5 round up <4 round down. In this case, a 2.12mm shim was needed.
This equation gives you a tolerance of .0138" so you have a little room to play.
As you can see, I had a 2.11 in the exhaust #8, so I will switch that.
S13 equation tolerance per FSM = Intake 0.35 mm (0.0138") / Exhaust 0.37 mm (0.0146")
S14 equation tolerance per FSM = Intake 0.37 mm (0.0146") / Exhaust 0.37 mm (0.0146")
But it is good practice for you to read your FSM for yourself. If you dont have one download it for free from my website.
I also read where you state you need to convert everything to millmeters insted of inches - but this is only preference. I always use inches myself.
The way I go to get my "new" shims;
I will take the "old" valve lash size (for example .010") and then the "old" shim size (for example .090") - then my target valve lash would be (for example .014") - I would get a "new" shim that measured as close to .086" - which should give me close to .014" of "new" valve lash.
Keep in mind a "thicker" valve lash requires and "thinner" shim and a "thinner" lash requires and "thicker" shim.
The equation in the FSM just confusses most people and IMO it doesnt need to be done that way. Valve lash is not a cruical as say bearing clearance so you can not stress on this as much. Hope this helps out.
This is a great write-up by the way.
Last edited by joshds25 on Thu Sep 09, 2010 5:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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fixed.
It is preference, but when you go to order new shims, they are listed in metric. so you might as well go ahead and convert it from the get go.
It is preference, but when you go to order new shims, they are listed in metric. so you might as well go ahead and convert it from the get go.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
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I'm finally getting around to degreeing my BC v2s on my dd. I made a prototype set of my precision cam gears I am satisfied with at 1 crank degree increments. One advance gear and one retard gear.
When I installed my v2s awhile back I stoned my shims down to get within .001 of the .0138 and .0146 of the nominal valve lash in the fsm. The BC cam specs a smaller clearance (.008 and .010) Since the Valve seat wears and the valve keeps getting higher and higher (making the clearance smaller and smaller)) do you guys think .008 is too small?
Heres a pic of the gears BTW.
When I installed my v2s awhile back I stoned my shims down to get within .001 of the .0138 and .0146 of the nominal valve lash in the fsm. The BC cam specs a smaller clearance (.008 and .010) Since the Valve seat wears and the valve keeps getting higher and higher (making the clearance smaller and smaller)) do you guys think .008 is too small?
Heres a pic of the gears BTW.
98 s14 SE Track and weekender.
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i cant say if its too small or not honestly, because I don't know. kelford asks for around the same lash also. These companies put huge amounts of money into R & D before they ever release a product. If that low lash was going to be a problem, they would have ground the cams differently and specified a looser tollerence.
If you wanna play it safe, then keep stock lashes. Your cam profile will appear smaller and you wont receive full potential out of your setup. You also have to move the cam more to get your powerband where its supposed to be (or where you want it). If that is a sacrifice you are willing to make, then leave them stock. Either way, I doubt you will ever eat up enough lash to smack a valve into a piston. That takes a pretty big jump in mechanical timing.
You also need to factor in wear on the cam lobes over time. Its true that the seats get smaller over time, but so does the profile of the cam lobe. This is why the FSM specifies to check the stock cam profile on a rebuild. Whether or not the relationship is linear or not, I cannot say.
If you wanna play it safe, then keep stock lashes. Your cam profile will appear smaller and you wont receive full potential out of your setup. You also have to move the cam more to get your powerband where its supposed to be (or where you want it). If that is a sacrifice you are willing to make, then leave them stock. Either way, I doubt you will ever eat up enough lash to smack a valve into a piston. That takes a pretty big jump in mechanical timing.
You also need to factor in wear on the cam lobes over time. Its true that the seats get smaller over time, but so does the profile of the cam lobe. This is why the FSM specifies to check the stock cam profile on a rebuild. Whether or not the relationship is linear or not, I cannot say.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
This is prime example why "most" race motors get rebuilt at least once a year.
If you want to play you got to pay.
But with all seriousness valve lash cheack and shim replacment is not to hard to do - so just check it most often and your good - no worries about parts wearing down.
But also to add those look like nice cam gears - How did you drill them to be sure they were dead on?
JWT gears are only $140.00 which IMO its not to bad a price considering other adjuatable cam gears.
If you want to play you got to pay.
But with all seriousness valve lash cheack and shim replacment is not to hard to do - so just check it most often and your good - no worries about parts wearing down.
But also to add those look like nice cam gears - How did you drill them to be sure they were dead on?
JWT gears are only $140.00 which IMO its not to bad a price considering other adjuatable cam gears.
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How do I know they are dead on. Because I measured the stock gear with a Zeiss CMM then after some head scratching about the JWT gears and how the holes have equal spacing I designed several gear configurations.
Then I made this on a kitamura true 5 axis mill with vertical spindle glass scales and encoders which holds less a tenth all day. THEN checked the angles on my Zeiss CMM; they're all within .05 decimal degrees. I'm a partial owner of a quality lab so I check everything, just ask CP pistons If someone needs something checked/reverse engineered I'll do it for cheap.
If like these gears then I'll make a hardened steel drill fixture so I can pump 'em out for KA-T and anyone else who wants more fine tuning than the JWT gears.
On my dd I dont play much but for some reason I still pay a s**t load. Cams do wear but aluminum under heat, abrasive carbon and high RPM wears much faster than a ground steel cam lobe with constant oiling and all that good stuff. But my KA is getting tired
Kelford asks for the same lash.... fine, I'll get the damn oil stone.... there goes my labor day.
Then I made this on a kitamura true 5 axis mill with vertical spindle glass scales and encoders which holds less a tenth all day. THEN checked the angles on my Zeiss CMM; they're all within .05 decimal degrees. I'm a partial owner of a quality lab so I check everything, just ask CP pistons If someone needs something checked/reverse engineered I'll do it for cheap.
If like these gears then I'll make a hardened steel drill fixture so I can pump 'em out for KA-T and anyone else who wants more fine tuning than the JWT gears.
On my dd I dont play much but for some reason I still pay a s**t load. Cams do wear but aluminum under heat, abrasive carbon and high RPM wears much faster than a ground steel cam lobe with constant oiling and all that good stuff. But my KA is getting tired
Kelford asks for the same lash.... fine, I'll get the damn oil stone.... there goes my labor day.
98 s14 SE Track and weekender.
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kelford cams are set at intake .009" and .011" exhaust.
BC is intake .008" and .010" exhaust
JWT is .010-.012 intake and same on exhaust.
PDM has a pretty good line of billet cams out that are ground with stock base circles and do not require new shims.
BC is intake .008" and .010" exhaust
JWT is .010-.012 intake and same on exhaust.
PDM has a pretty good line of billet cams out that are ground with stock base circles and do not require new shims.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
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I've yet to find anyone with PDM cams yet, I like the staggered opening idea. lol I'll set one shim to the high and one to the low! boot leg staggering FTW.
I would like some kelfords but I bought a full head a while back with the v2s and heard the v2s were crappy so I threw em in my dd.
I would like some kelfords but I bought a full head a while back with the v2s and heard the v2s were crappy so I threw em in my dd.
98 s14 SE Track and weekender.
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v2's arent crappy at all, people just werent installing them correctly. it didnt help that someone made a mistake when publishing the cam card either. now that thats all straight, there are plenty of people making good power with them.
RIP Nate Moore (480sx)We will never forget you.240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
R34SR wrote:save a tree, drag your ass on the grass.
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AMS tested cams from crane, kelford, greddy, hks, BC, GSC, FP, and tomei. Guess which brand of cams where the only ones who where not within 1deg of the cam card?ILuvS13s wrote:v2's arent crappy at all, people just werent installing them correctly. it didnt help that someone made a mistake when publishing the cam card either. now that thats all straight, there are plenty of people making good power with them.
Crappy may be a bit harsh, lets just say they lack the refinement and quality control found in other cams on the market. BC is cheaper than the competition for a reason, lack of quality control.
They do perform ok once dialed in.
RIP Nate(480sx)...
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- Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
- Posts: 772
- Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 11:24 am
- Location: SOCAL
Well thats only what I read, even here on ka-t. I asked several people if they degreed their cams. I'll know later today how much power they add. Quality definitly isn't great, there were burrs on the edges of the cams, and the exhaust cam had lots of less than 0 valve lash compared to the stock cams. They are cheap cams so I'm not complaining. If you dont degree them my butt dyno says it actually removes a lot of top end but helps the bottom
Last edited by keytops on Wed Sep 08, 2010 6:21 pm, edited 2 times in total.
98 s14 SE Track and weekender.