9:1 compression motors run rich?

Basic tech questions such as future setups, different turbo kits, car diagnosis, etc
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R34SR
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9:1 compression motors run rich?

Post by R34SR »

Ok so i finally rebuilt the motor , been running good for about a a month now ( weekend only ) but i've noticed shes going through a tank of gas in about 150 miles...i chose to break it in NA before going turbo, i know that by lowering the compression i am losing power and probably running rich, but i didn't expect to go from 30mpg to 12....i checked out the injector seals and all is good, no codes that would relate to this in the ecu...everything on the engine is brand new except for the fpr and maf.

I plan to install my afr gauge soon but in the meantime i was wondering if this is typical for a lower compression motor if its not tuned....i might stop driving it all together because my other concern is washing the cylinders if it turns out to be super rich.

any advice?
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by emo_tactical9 »

Going from stock to 9:1 shouldn't cause that large of a hit to your gas mileage. It shouldn't cause a rich condition either.
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Post by R34SR »

thanks for the response, i didn't think it should cause me to run that rich....i'm gonna recheck my ecu codes, vacuum leak test, and mabe even inspect those seals again.....otherwise i'm actually at a loss especially being that every single sensor was replaced, the only thing that's not functioning because the plug broke off is the iacv....but she idles beautifully at 800rpm once warm.....problem right now is the weather and not having a garage..
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by supakat »

You did 248 cam swap?
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Post by digotti »

Try fixing your iacv as well. It uses that to adjust your air at idle. Without the proper air at idle it will cause you to run rich.
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Post by R34SR »

nope no cam swap stock cams....the motor feels good, doesn't feel like cam timing is off or anything of the sort....timing was 20 btdc at around 750-800rpm....really didn't wanna spend the $100+ on a dumb iacv..and id like to get my afr gauge installed first ...its gotta be either a vacuum leak, bad fpr, or a injector/seal issue....wish i had more time to look after this ****.
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by ATLspeed »

Yea somehting is def not right. Even on mine (when NA) i got 325-350.

*o2 sensor or coolant temp sensor maybe"
- KA24DE = 14.8
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- KA24DE-T28 (12psi) = 12.9 (traction issues)
- KA24DE-T HE351 (20psi) = ??.??
- 2JZ HX40 (18psi) = LOL

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Post by TryingToTurbo »

Have you looked to make sure you haven't just simply left a hose clamp loose and leaking fuel out of a rubber line? I has a fuel hose clamp go bad on the hose for the fuel filter on the under side and has the same issue. **** gas mileage, turned out to be fuel literally dripping out the line, which only showed up with the car on when there was pressure in the line so it wouldn't leak while the car was off and parked.
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Post by niceguy »

Sorry if I missed it but what ECU/tune/management are you running? Like ATL suggested, depending on OBD spec, the O2/CTS can cause real rich conditions. Also the O2 and coolant temp sensor if out of spec, may not trip a code but can really kill fuel economy as well as the coolant system/thermostat not getting the engine up to temps fast enough to get into closed loop.

Same goes with the MAF as well...I've had bad experiences with MAF's causing over rich conditions and finally tracked it down running Nissan Datascan via Blazt on my '93...

One last thing, can you smell fuel in the exhaust or is it black/sooty? If not, it may be a small leak like TTT mentioned....sorry for the novel but I hate to think of how much time and money I've spent tracking down rich KA problems over the years and money on gas!
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Post by R34SR »

the o2 sensor and coolant temp sensor are brand new.......im gonna connect a laptop to nistune again and see whats going on....otherwise its a mystery.....the fuel hoses and clamps i used were brand new but ill recheck them......its so frigging cold out side i just parked her and im using the daily :-( when i figure it out ill be sure to post.
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by R34SR »

Just an update, seemed to have misplaced my nistune consult cable....did a compression test in the meanwhile .......i got 120psi across all 4 cylinders....i know my motor only has about 100 miles on it since the rebuild but i was hoping for something closer to 150psi with 9:1 pistons......am i being paranoid or is this to be expected before a complete break in?

On the upside all 4 spark plugs looked beautiful...had that nice grey/brownish tinge that you want....which i did not expect since i thought the motor was running rich....leads me to believe that i just may have a fuel leak like "Trying to Turbo" suggested.


I also have a bad oil leak coming from my welded oil return bung...bummer....and lastly for some reason my timing chain sounds like its slapping a bit around 3krpm and up and then again upon decel ( car stationary and revving )....the upper guides were removed a long time ago...something leads me to think one the the new timing chain tensioners are bad or something , Oil pressures are great, mabe even a tad on the high side so i know it isnt that.

Just hope there isnt any relation between my low compression numbers and the rattling noise that kicks in at 3k.....thoughts?

Also is it possible to have ignition timing spot on 20 degrees btdc, confirmed with a timing light and nistune.....but yet be off a tooth on the cam or timing chain?
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by McHaals »

120 is a bit low.. we had 150 with 8.5:1 pistons..

double check the timing chain/cams..
can cause all 3 symptoms..( low comp, milage, noise )
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Post by nismoautoxr »

looking at your compression readings I have a feeling there is an issue with valve timing . Yes it is possible to have ignition timing at 20 degrees and still be off on your cam timing. Recheck your valve timing .
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Post by R34SR »

When i get some time i think im gonna re-time the cams.....i know the last time was in there i TDC'd the motor, dizzy drive gear was adjusted perfectly..hence the 20 degree timing confirmed with the light....and like i said the motor starts, idles and runs perfectly, but that rattling,low compression and big loss of torque definitely means something is fishy....promise to update when i figure it out.....when you can finally afford to do the things you love...you have no time for it....life.
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by Walperstyle »

Can you install the AFR gauge right now, or is the reason due to waiting for downpipe? have a testpipe with bung?
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Post by R34SR »

no actually i can install a afr gauge right now...the car has a obx header ,3" test pipe and 3" catback....i dont have a pod for the gauge but i can still hook it up to check out the readings......honestly my main concern right now is why my compression is 120 on all cylinders and my timing chain rattle.........im leading myself to believe that the cam timing is the issue.....since the compression test yielded 120psi on all 4 cylinders...im talking +- 1 psi.......its just wierd that the engine runs so smoothly , pulls pretty damn good, idles flawlessly and times spot on 20 degrees....im no longer driving it until i figure this out of course.....whats your take on checking the afr walperstyle?
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by ppctx »

If we can vote on the poor mpg issue, I'm going with TTT's leaking fuel diagnosis.

Before I learned that there was a difference in fuel line and fuel injection line, about once a year my mileage would tank. Couldn't find any issues with pooling of fuel. Then noticed that if I let it idle for a bit, fuel was dripping out of fuel hoses. Pulled them off and some were cracked like old tires. Switched to correct injection lines and never had a leak since. I even had a leak one time with the stock fuel lines at the tank connection. Most of the fuel evaporated as it rolled off the tank, before it hit the ground, so there was never any pooling.

Point being, a leak in the fuel line may not be completely obvious.
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Post by R34SR »

i know i bought all efi fuel hose from autozone when i replaced all the lines.....the fact that i can smell a bit of gas near the filter is probably a sign that something is leaking there.....cant wait for this weather to get better so i can tackle these issues and get my baby primed for some boost!
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by niceguy »

I feel for you man, I've been having a bit of the same issue with my '93 Altima project car. Car runs smooth, pulls great, idles perfect but only getting about 19.5mpg around town. I've replaced my injectors, FPR, O2, plugs/wires and Coolant Temp sensor and nothing. I even replaced the original gas cap last night feeling desperate lol...

As soon as I start the car cold, the O2 starts at .3v and slowly climbs to .8v and stays but like you, my plugs are tan/grey. Driving me nuts though...

I spent over an hour in a huge LKQ pull apart this morning with no gloves or jacket and thought my hands were going to fall off, it was even lightly snowing!

Post back when you find the answer, please :)

EDIT: One last thing, I remember reading over at maxima.org that guys were getting less mileage/tank after replacing their stock fuel pumps with aftermarket (Walbro) because the Walbro pickup sock is shorter. I think (hope) that might be part of my issue but who knows...
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Post by R34SR »

sorry to hear, im running on the stock fpr and pump for the moment.....as for you id look into the knock sensor which at one time in the past had caused my mileage to take a ****......and fuel lines for leaks as was suggested to me.
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Mazworx z32 tranny swap
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AME FS01 WHEELS 18X9 +25



TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by ATLspeed »

if it eases your mind I'm getting 130psi across all cylinders with 9.1:1 pistons....need to check them again honestly
- KA24DE = 14.8
- KA24DE-T25 (7psi) = 13.1
- KA24DE-T28 (12psi) = 12.9 (traction issues)
- KA24DE-T HE351 (20psi) = ??.??
- 2JZ HX40 (18psi) = LOL

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Post by R34SR »

actually no it dosent lol but thanks..

if anything, i should be getting higher compression than our average 9:1 piston user on this forum for the mere fact that i used supertech 4032 pistons and ran a tighter piston to wall clearance than your typical 2016 9:1 build........i think its somthing like .018 and .022 for my rings.

I feel 99% certain that my cam timing is off a tooth, ill let you guys know when i get in there.
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by R34SR »

So i decided to tackle the job today in 32 degree weather, did a cold compression test on cylinder 1 just for reference......90psi.
Rechecked my cam timing and the exhaust cam was off a tooth. Readjusted it ....did another cold compression test ...150psi :lol:

It was way too cold for me to reset dizzy timing properly and some other minor stuff but at least I'm pretty sure I fixed my issue.

Cheers fellas just wanted to update.
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EAGLE-ARP-SUPERTECH 9:1 KA24DE
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ID1050x Injectors
Full Race twin scroll manifold
ISIS FMIC
Mazworx z32 tranny swap
CTS V CALIPERS
STANCE LX+ Coilovers
J30 LSD
AME FS01 WHEELS 18X9 +25



TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by nismoautoxr »

HALE YEAH!!!! I bet she runs much better after correcting that. :D
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Post by Walperstyle »

Its hilarious to know that I'm probably going to run into the same problem. We see people off by a tooth all too often.
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Post by nismoautoxr »

Ive done it myself and for the life of me I have not figured out how I did it . It has marked links for god sakes .shrug I missed mine on the bottom chain though .
Last edited by nismoautoxr on Sat Jan 14, 2012 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ricky Ragan,
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Post by Bubba »

Awesome, glad to see you figured it out without having to do surgery.
My car is dead stock.... ish

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Post by R34SR »

Well if anything I definitely learned some useful things about the cam timing chain from this , first of all...if its done correctly the little bit of slack in the chain should be on the tensioner side...the top and right side should be tight.....before my slack was on the top of the chain....I know it sounds retarded and if I had pics I'd show you what I meant.

Secondly, when I first did the cam chain the gears and chain were kinda difficult to put on together.
If the cam gears are aligned exactly as the jwt diagram shows, they literally slip on like butter with little effort.

Looking back on this I think I may have gotten thrown off with the cam gear positions due to the ka24"s inherent lean in the engine bay....making the 12 o'clock position appear to be 11 o'clock.


Lastly now that I understand the whole system better, you start to realize that those mating marks don't really mean ****....it's all about tdc and cam position ...not so much what a damn mark on a chain says.
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J30 LSD
AME FS01 WHEELS 18X9 +25



TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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Post by McHaals »

McHaals wrote:120 is a bit low.. we had 150 with 8.5:1 pistons..

double check the timing chain/cams..
can cause all 3 symptoms..( low comp, milage, noise )
U see ? I told ... :D
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R34SR
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Post by R34SR »

You were absolutely right buddy
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EAGLE-ARP-SUPERTECH 9:1 KA24DE
BW S257 SX-E .78AR
ID1050x Injectors
Full Race twin scroll manifold
ISIS FMIC
Mazworx z32 tranny swap
CTS V CALIPERS
STANCE LX+ Coilovers
J30 LSD
AME FS01 WHEELS 18X9 +25



TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG
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