Torque wrench

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Walperstyle
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Torque wrench

Post by Walperstyle »

So after about 2 years of having issues with my torque wrench, I looked at it close... it says IN-LBS not FT LBS, and doesn't go high enough. THIS WHOLE TIME I THOUGHT IT WAS BROKEN!

Needless to say, I purchased a larger torque wrench today that is listed in FT LBS, lol.

:roll: amateur moment
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Post by supakat »

LOL. We all have our days.
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Post by nismo_dreaming »

HOLY F! That sucks man. I had a really old torque wrench that me and about 5 buddies all shared that was so far off its spec, it caused low readings and my head would lift under boost (used the same wrench to build my last KA-T.) You should check out these new super nice Brownline Electronic Torque Wrenches. It’s on my Xmas list :)
http://www.brownlinemetalworks.com/

You can get them off Amazon.com for a little over $100.
http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Line-BLD021 ... B0032A60W2

Best thing about these wrenches is you can switch there readout from between ft/lbs, in/lbs, and Nm ft/lbs, in/lbs, and Nm. It doesn’t use clicks either, but rather a Green to Yellow to Red LED "stoplight" and an audible beep to let you know you've reached your setting. Plus, it will monitor forces applied and show you your exact torque you left on last turn on its LCD screen. This last feature alone is fricken awesome if you ask me.
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Post by biggie »

If anyone gets lucky, check local Lowe's Hardware stores, they are transitioning to different Kobalt tools (one's made in China I believe). But they put the old stock of kobalt torque wrenches on sale. Picked up a 3/8 inch on for under $40 and the 1/2 inch was $50 or so I believe. Just hard to find now.
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Post by tom550 »

nismo_dreaming wrote:HOLY F! That sucks man. I had a really old torque wrench that me and about 5 buddies all shared that was so far off its spec, it caused low readings and my head would lift under boost (used the same wrench to build my last KA-T.) You should check out these new super nice Brownline Electronic Torque Wrenches. It’s on my Xmas list :)
http://www.brownlinemetalworks.com/

You can get them off Amazon.com for a little over $100.
http://www.amazon.com/Brown-Line-BLD021 ... B0032A60W2

Best thing about these wrenches is you can switch there readout from between ft/lbs, in/lbs, and Nm ft/lbs, in/lbs, and Nm. It doesn’t use clicks either, but rather a Green to Yellow to Red LED "stoplight" and an audible beep to let you know you've reached your setting. Plus, it will monitor forces applied and show you your exact torque you left on last turn on its LCD screen. This last feature alone is fricken awesome if you ask me.
That looks cool but I would totally abuse it and break it. I would just stick to a simple wrench that works.
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Post by nismo_dreaming »

tom550 wrote: That looks cool but I would totally abuse it and break it. I would just stick to a simple wrench that works.
A good torque wrench should not be used as a breaker bar. They are tools used to measure, not break free. If you buy a nice set of tools backed by a quality name, and treat your tools right, they can last forever.
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Post by tom550 »

i would use it right and still destroy it in a week.
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Walperstyle
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Post by Walperstyle »

nismo_dreaming wrote:
tom550 wrote: That looks cool but I would totally abuse it and break it. I would just stick to a simple wrench that works.
A good torque wrench should not be used as a breaker bar. They are tools used to measure, not break free. If you buy a nice set of tools backed by a quality name, and treat your tools right, they can last forever.
That works great in theory. Craftsman use to be an alright name, but I've broke 3 breaker bars from them. I still get a free replacement, but it gets annoying.
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Post by supakat »

+2.4.

I get tired of going to sears just to replace and the clerk looks at you like your cheap because that's all you came their to do. Eat a d!ck @sshole..
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Post by Walperstyle »

hhahah

Update: I used my IN-LBS torque wrench today as my new one doesn't do under 20 FT-LBS, and using the internet and converting everything over, I still managed to break off a cam cap bolt, a 2nd time. (see build thread for video of how I fixed it, lol)
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Post by Liteemup39496 »

im going on like 8th motor being assembled or head being replaced on my trusty old school HF 1/2 drive torque wrench,

i know its torques correctly as a buddy of mine has a matco one and we compared torquing a bolt (make sure mine was relatively accurate) and its spot on
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Post by Kfred »

You just divide [inch*lbs] by 12 to get [ft*lbs]. I don't think you need an internet calculator to do that math for you.

I torque my cam caps down with a 3/8" drive short handle ratchet. I have a pretty good feel for how much torque i'm putting in. Torque wrenches are usually significantly inaccurate on the low end of the scale.
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Post by supakat »

Same here. All done by hand. Only mains and head are torqued. Everything else is by feel.
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Post by Walperstyle »

supakat wrote:Same here. All done by hand. Only mains and head are torqued. Everything else is by feel.
thats how my cam caps are right now, I guessed 10ftlbs.
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Post by supakat »

I saw your video before you posted it on your build thread. I get email alerts from Google. As soon as I saw the user id on Youtube, I was like this is what probably sparked this thread.
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Post by superDorifto »

Kfred wrote:You just divide [inch*lbs] by 12 to get [ft*lbs]. I don't think you need an internet calculator to do that math for you.

I torque my cam caps down with a 3/8" drive short handle ratchet. I have a pretty good feel for how much torque i'm putting in. Torque wrenches are usually significantly inaccurate on the low end of the scale.
false.

they are accurate across the range they are intended to be used if its at all a reputable brand.

get set of gauge/dial type inch pound wrenches, we use them to assemble jet engines....much more accurate than any click type wrench.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

snapon, end of story, i get mine calibrated twice a year free, and rebuilt the head once, its also 35 years old and still works perfect


+1 on guage style for low torque specs..
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Post by Kfred »

superDorifto wrote: false.

they are accurate across the range they are intended to be used if its at all a reputable brand.

get set of gauge/dial type inch pound wrenches, we use them to assemble jet engines....much more accurate than any click type wrench.
I do uncertainty calculations on measurements nearly everyday. When you are going to publish a scientific article you have to state the uncertainty in all your data. We generate uncertainty using manufactures specs, measurement error, and Monte Carlo simulations.

So, lets look at the accuracy ratings of torque wrenches:

First we have a fairly expensive clicker:
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_1260 ... 62219551-2

It says the accuracy is 3% of the full scale from 20-100% of full range.
This means that you would expect your readings to be +/- [85ft*lbs*(.03)] = 2.55ft*lbs

They don't state the accuracy at readings below 20%, but I can assure you the error is significantly worst as you approach 0% of the scale. Lets assume it is 5% at the minimum reading of 10ft*lbs. You torque your cam cap to 10ft*lbs and you expect the actual torque to be 10ft*lbs +/- 4.25ft*lbs.

The same is true for dial torque wrenches. All of these snap on dial wrenches state the accuracy above 20% of scale reading: http://www.protorquetools.com/212/cdi-d ... enches.htm

There may be some really expensive wrenches that are accurate over a wider range, but i'm assuming almost everyone here use chinese - snap on when working on there cars.

There is an easy way around this problem. Get two torque wrenches. One for low torque applications and one for higher. Always assure your desired torque is a minimum of ~15% of the scale.
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Post by superDorifto »

you proved my point with your well worded and researched post.

across their calibrated ranges, each wrench is accurate with a degree of repeatability so long as the calibration is appropriate for the specified tourque being applied.

I'm not gonna use a 3/4 inch wrench on a bolt that only needs 10-20 lb/ft per the manual. Right tool, right job.

That is my only point. I have 3 torque wrenches, a big one that reads up to 200 lb/ft, a mid sized wrench the reads to 100, and a small guy that reads to 50. When I need inch/lbs I use my firends grand father's snap on set from the 50's, still calibrated, still works...Per your point, I stay out of the min and max ranges to maximize accuracy.

On another note....

I also use the monte carlo method at work for tolerance stacks, and clearance checks to hardware in our digital mock-up for what ever project I'm working on. It is not feasible to use statistical analysis on every single bolt...takes a good designer a few hours to get the work done for a single clearance check as it is.

To deal with the inherent micro/macroscopic inconsistencies (bolt stretch, galling, cold welding, binding, etc) that cause repeatability errors with bolt/nut torques my company created a control spec that specifies a range of values based on the 3 most important criteria. Fastener strength, substrate strength, and applicable coatings. It allows us a greater degree of quality control, and gives the final assembler/mechanic a set of standard values to torque to based on the resulting code included in his assembly schematic.

They also have a set of wrenches, and they get calibrated weekly.

Most of the bolts on your car will prolly be fine, but to claim that torquing is not important because of repeatability....wrong, its still vital, you just need to ensure that your tool is calibrated and you are using the right size wrench.
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Post by Kfred »

superDorifto wrote: I'm not gonna use a 3/4 inch wrench on a bolt that only needs 10-20 lb/ft per the manual. Right tool, right job.

Most of the bolts on your car will prolly be fine, but to claim that torquing is not important because of repeatability....wrong, its still vital, you just need to ensure that your tool is calibrated and you are using the right size wrench.
To the top comment:
Me, like most people here probably don't have 3 torque wrenches. I have one, a 1/2" drive clicker by craftsman. The scale reads down to 10ft*lbs but it is really inaccurate at this range. I just wanted to let people be aware that it is very inaccurate at that low range of the torque listed on the tool. I'm sure most of the users don't read the manual that comes with the wrench. They probably assume it is calibrated over the span listed on the tool. This is rarely the case with torque wrenches.

You are right though, you need the right tool for the job. The best thing to do would be to buy a 40-250 inch pound 1/4" drive torque wrench to handle torquing the cam caps.

To your second comment:
I never said such a comment. I agree that torquing the cam caps with the appropriate tool would be much better than doing it by feel. If torquing them to 10ft*lbs with a 1/2" drive torque wrench or doing it by hand is better is the real question. I can really see myself stripping out those tiny bolts when my clicker doesn't actually click until ~15ft*lbs. I do it by feel because I am a poor college student and can't justify going buy a torque wrench just for my cam caps. On something vital like an aircraft definitely get the right tool for the job.

You can't guess torque better than the right tool. You might be able to guess the torque better than the wrong tool though.
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Post by superDorifto »

sorry for the inference....hell I dont check the torque unless its under the valve cover, in the block, or directly responsible for holding a wheel on the car.

My sig on NICO is

" remember tight is tight....too tight is broke..."

It was a quote from one of my best friends when we were arguing over the main crank girdle torque when assembling a KA like 10 years ago.

We all looked at him like he had a faucet sticking outta his forehead, and then agreed...that too tight was indeed broke.
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Post by zlatsky »

I wish whoever had my KA before me had used a torque wrench when putting on the timing chain tensioner. They stripped the hell out of it and now the tensioner kinda just hangs there.

Anyone else use an analog torque wrench? I got tired of buying cheap click ones on sale at harbor freight that break after one drop so I bought an analog. No problems yet.
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Post by Walperstyle »

Thank you for reminding me to torque my idler pulley.
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Post by superDorifto »

Walperstyle wrote:Thank you for reminding me to torque my idler pulley.
helped a friend do a headgasket and water pump on a 94 corolla this summer, got to use his Grandfathers Snap on Analog set,

Inch/lb analog wrenches are straight baller....."There, EXACTLY 17.5 inch/lbs."
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