improvements on KA oiling system?

Advanced discussion of improving KA-T components
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improvements on KA oiling system?

Post by HORSEPOWER CHEF »

ive noticed that many other high horsepower motors have oil grooves cut into the main bearing saddles,even though some dont have extra oiling holes in the bearings.do u guys(engine builders/machinist) think there is any benifit to these groove being cut into a KA's main bearing saddles has anyone ever machined these in? if so did u have custome bearings made or did you stick with stock style?
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Post by 1wheelwonder »

Good thread.

Im interested in this topic too, i'd really like to see experts like SMracing, Joel from HRT and the like join in and contribute to this.
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Post by nissanfanatic »

I think the best modification would be to WPC treat the bearings. It basically dimpilates the bearing surface which traps oil in the pores under load. Scenes how oil does not compress, it will not squeeze out of the pores and this will maintain a boundary layer of oil between the bearing and mating surface.
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Post by 480sx »

Obscure acronym alert! :!:

Definition of WPC = :?:
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Post by HORSEPOWER CHEF »

a few other things i was thinking about doing was drilling the main bearing oiling holes out a bit larger,and drilling out the plugs in the main oil galley and doing the same.also instead of putting in more press in plugs threading in some steel plugs for easy access in the event of rebuild. i know these modifications would lower my oil pressure at idle but who races at idle? come on ivan or anyone else i got a thirst for knowledge only u guys can quinch!!!! lol

thanx in advance
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Post by t88hlexus »

www.wpctreatment.com



is the best stuff, and its not like coating and other stuff that will come off, and change the clearance.


let me know if you need to get wpc treated of bearings or we recommanded for customer to do piston rings and wrist pin. makes world difference..


t88hlexus@Hotmail.com for question..
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Post by smracing »

The truth which will be hard to take for some of you guys, is that the ka really doesn't turn the kind of rpm that requires the mods. I never see failures due to oiling. My dry sump setup has many changes from stock, but no grooving for the main bearings. Just don't see the need. For most of you guys, I'd recommend restricting the the head feed to 1.25mm, and running .0025 main clearence with a 30 weight oil. Coated bearing are a good idea too.
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Post by HORSEPOWER CHEF »

interesting,ive never built a KA i just figured i would rather be safe than sorry in this case.its just normally whenever i see failures its usually rod bearings,so i figured i should over do the oiling system.are there any recommendations for a motor that can hold 700-800 at the crank (im aiming for ~400rwhp on pump and around 550-600rwhp on c16).im not entirely sure how high i will need to turn the motor,so i figured i would evaluate the oiling system and build it like i was going to rev it to 8500rpm (not that i would)...

how high have you turned at stock style oiling system KA? how high are you turning your dry-sump motor?
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Post by ispentallmymoneyontires »

Disclaimer: im kinda a noob

would treatments like the WRC help even like a mild to medium build rev higher? (of course coupled with some headwork) i dont know if it would be worth it though because from what ive seen on some charts is that power just drops off after like 7k anyway (or is that just their setups?) i would think if you could build/tune it to rev to 8 safely with a 8.5 safty zone it would help squeeze a bunch more power of of the motor cause you can stay in boost longer and the rpm advantage? or is this type of work just good for high power motors like 500+
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Post by Kfred »

ispentallmymoneyontires wrote:Disclaimer: im kinda a noob

would treatments like the WRC help even like a mild to medium build rev higher? (of course coupled with some headwork) i dont know if it would be worth it though because from what ive seen on some charts is that power just drops off after like 7k anyway (or is that just their setups?) i would think if you could build/tune it to rev to 8 safely with a 8.5 safty zone it would help squeeze a bunch more power of of the motor cause you can stay in boost longer and the rpm advantage? or is this type of work just good for high power motors like 500+
Building the stock drivetrain to handle 8500rpms won't be a problem, but getting the bottom end to hande those kinds of rpm's is a different story. The ka's crank is only half counterweighted and causes power robbing (and dangerous) vibrations at high rpms. Their is no reason to take the ka above 7.5k, the long stroke + half counterweighted crank is a bad combination for higher revs. You can fully spool a 600whp capable turbo before 4500rpms, that gives you a 3k rpm powerband if you are taking it to 7500, which is plenty.

If you wanna take your revs to the moon, get a rb20.
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Post by ispentallmymoneyontires »

i dont mean to argue, but increasing the rpm capeability wouldnt decrease the torque i dont think which is my reason heres my idea:
a" 300-400hp turbo KA with full boost at 3-3.5k rpm and revs to 8-8.5 i dont see why" this would be ill-logical?
then so the major upgrades would just need to be full counterweighted crank/ balance everything/ apperently treat the bering surfaces with WPC/ P&P head with springs and prolly v2 cams.

would this be unreasonable? i would think (especially that im not really a drag type i wanna do drifting / autocross) that a lower powered more usable powerband with high torque and revs would be fantastic?

/waiting for counterpoint lol :)
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Post by 480sx »

The main point here is that the Ka will rob your top end power with the half weighted crank. It gets progressivly worse as you go up the RPM range. Your better off to shift and let the low end do its thing.

Or go with a 1600 dollar FCW crank... :roll: Might as well just get a freaken RB..
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Post by hondas_suck »

AMS offers fully grooved main bearings with their long and short blocks for increased oiling. I think Ivan uses these on his setup.
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Post by HORSEPOWER CHEF »

damn,does ivan even still post on here?
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Post by Kfred »

480sx wrote:The main point here is that the Ka will rob your top end power with the half weighted crank. It gets progressivly worse as you go up the RPM range. Your better off to shift and let the low end do its thing.

Or go with a 1600 dollar FCW crank... :roll: Might as well just get a freaken RB..
Thats exactly what i was saying, summed it up nicely. I would rather a car that makes power from 3k-6.5k than one that makes power from 4.5k-8k anyday of the week. Your car will feel like a turd driving around town with the powerband shifted that high. Sure you can make more power due to rpm, but your motor becomes less reliable, and you have to rev the piss out of it to make any kind of power.

Why wouldn't you want lowend grunt when comming out of a corner while auto-xing? You do not need to rev your motor to the sky to drift either, low end torque is great for getting the rear end to kick out, and 4k-7k is plent of range to modulate the throttle to control the drift.
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Post by HORSEPOWER CHEF »

never said i was trying to rev to the moon.just figure if im building it up i would this motor up im gonna try and over do it in the even that i do decide that i want more power.rather than increasing the MEP, use different stratagies to shift the torque band up higher in the rev range.yes i know this isnt a b-series motor lol....

on ivans 700whp pulls what were his tq numbers?
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Post by ispentallmymoneyontires »

well see i still havent gotten an ansewr i dont wanna shift the powerband up i just wanna INCREASE it. have full boost hittin in around 3.5 and have it drop off around 8-8.5 on a 375whp setup i dont see why this is un plausable aside from how $$$ that FWC is but this is only planing my optimal setup. i want my cake and i wanna eat it too mo fos lol that the whole point of tuning ?
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Post by ghostchild316 »

just get 2 cars

one with 50 trim T3/T04E and one with a T67

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Post by NateDogg »

RPM= Ruins peoples' motors.

If you can make 375 at 6000rpm you can more than halve the friction in your motor as opposed to making 375hp at 8000rpm+

My recommendation: Get a Honda.
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Post by Kfred »

NateDogg wrote:RPM= Ruins peoples' motors.

If you can make 375 at 6000rpm you can more than halve the friction in your motor as opposed to making 375hp at 8000rpm+

My recommendation: Get a Honda.
Haha, i didn't want to be the first person to say it. But yeah, if you want high revs get a honda.

The main reason people go ka-t is because of its lower powerband (and higher torque) as compared to the sr's.

You can't have a powerband that ranges from 3.5k to 8.5k without dropping off out of a 4cylinder, its not going to happen. If you go for higher revs your cams/intake mani/ bigger turbo housing are going to make you lose lowend torque. If you want maximum low end torque, your cams/intake mani (stock)/ and small turbine housings is going to choke your topend. Most people chose to settle in the middle, for good reason.


To the OP, the grooved bearings is not really needed because the ka is not a high reving motor. It may be usefull if you track your car alot, but otherwise clevites will work just fine.
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Post by sideview_s13 »

smracing wrote:The truth which will be hard to take for some of you guys, is that the ka really doesn't turn the kind of rpm that requires the mods. I never see failures due to oiling. My dry sump setup has many changes from stock, but no grooving for the main bearings. Just don't see the need. For most of you guys, I'd recommend restricting the the head feed to 1.25mm, and running .0025 main clearence with a 30 weight oil. Coated bearing are a good idea too.
i'm listening to him, since he and ivan and a few others are pusing the KA up and beyond what most of us will ever attempt to achieve.
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Post by ispentallmymoneyontires »

thank you kfred that was exactly the explanition i wanted. i just wanted more of a reason/explanation than

"NO!"

:lol: ive been riding around in my friends S2K too much i guess idk if you guys have been in one but its a crazy feeling to be shifting at 9k :shock: and hes gonna be putting a 50 shot on a window switch.

so then for what im looking at for my ideal setup there really isnt much of a reason to do anything to the oiling system? would having them coated or WPC treated be worth it jsut for the added security.

also im guessing this is a "duh" which is why it hasnt been mentioned but doesnt a basic oil cooler help out alot (nissanfanatics suspected cause of his 5xxhp motor taking a crap from heat)
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Post by smracing »

Unless you have a track car, I would strongly advise against an oil cooler. The oil needs to get hot as quick as possible to avoid engine wear. Hot oil is a good thing. 200-220 is good. That is the catch 22. You want hot oil, but cool air.
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Post by sideview_s13 »

smracing wrote:Unless you have a track car, I would strongly advise against an oil cooler. The oil needs to get hot as quick as possible to avoid engine wear. Hot oil is a good thing. 200-220 is good. That is the catch 22. You want hot oil, but cool air.
so would a thermostat controlled oiling system be the best viable option to allow the oil to get hot enough, but allow it to cool if it actually gets hot while driving.
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Post by Kfred »

Yes, that would be optimal. But like smracing said, pointless unless you really push your car hard for long periods of time. (Like drifting or road racing)
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Post by nissanfanatic »

A thermostatically controlled oil cooling system would have no counterproductive side effects.
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Post by smracing »

nissanfanatic wrote:A thermostatically controlled oil cooling system would have no counterproductive side effects.
Weight, leaks, oil cost.
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Post by 480sx »

smracing wrote: Weight, leaks, oil cost.
All tiny issues when compared to potential benefits.

The only simi-serious one i see there is leaks. If done right, you wont have a problem.
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Post by ispentallmymoneyontires »

well since i plan on running it in drifting and autoX later how about an oil cooler with a simple manual 2 way valve for oil cooler and no oil cooler cheap/ light/ effective? also this way i can let it warm up and then turn on the swich for even normal driving in our hot ass florida days lol
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Post by 480sx »

Oh man thats a horrible idea lol. Not tryen to bust on you or anything, but seriously, dont do that. Without an oil temp gage you would have no idea what you were doing. Even with an oil temp gage, you would have to watch it when you start beating on your motor and hit it at the right time, then shut it off when oil reached op temps.

Ontop of all that, you would have to be super vigilant not to make mistakes with the switch. I mean how are you going to remember to turn it off and on all the time, just a huge PITA really.

If your serious about an oil cooler, just spend the cash and get a thermostatically controlled one or your waisting your time.
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