Sleeved block

Advanced discussion of improving KA-T components
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Sleeved block

Post by BRAD D »

well im starting to wonder just how strong these blocks are, after pulling my motor apart i have found that two of the jugs have hair line cracks. this took place at low 600whp at the track,the psitons seem fine.

so it seems that a few of us have had this problem,what do do now is the question. I dont want to risk just installing another block... too much time wasted if it splits again.

I would run another type of motor like a RB26 but i have too much invested in the KA to give up (fully built head,rods,nitride crank,power train ect...)

So who is sleaving blocks? who has them? im a bit worried about this because sleeving can bring on some problems of its own. Is DPS the only guys that have done it?
klattr1
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3724
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC
Contact:

Re: Sleeved block

Post by klattr1 »

don't switch motors...the RB26 has inherent design flaws (as I'm sure you know) that you'll have to accomodate for when building a motor for this level too...and when it comes down to it, the KA setup will be cheaper in the long run.

i'm wondering if yours was just an isolated problem or if your cylinder walls built up too much rust from sitting too long and formed a crack in result...why did you stop driving it originally? was the head lifting? did winter come and you just stopped driving it?

otherwise, i haven't seen or heard anyone else cracking cylinder walls at 600-700 whp/30-35 psi.
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

was at the track running back to back mid 10s... took the car home seen it was getting hot when i floored it so i thought i lifted the head.

did not touch it for 2 years untill now. :D


you can see one of the cracks was there while the motor was running, it has a polished look to it where the crack stuck out into the piston.
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

efeezi, Ivan and myself have cracked blocks. I have seemed to do it with the least hp (139mph in a 3030lb race weight)

i would like to try another stock block but would hate to have to redo it again.
klattr1
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3724
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC
Contact:

Post by klattr1 »

Brad, will you be street driving your car any? If not and you are all 100% drag, then I was going to suggest just hard-blocking (grout filling) your engine (even without a sleeve)...that should be keep the cylinder walls durable under extreme pressure...but then again if it's a street car, then you'll run into problems with the motor running hot.

Having the sleeve/liner like Import DPS is setting them up as makes sense from a serviceability standpoint for all-out drag cars, so that way you never have to machine/bore the block again - in their case where they are pushing 1100 whp and 60 psi and need to install an new engine liner same weekend on a previously used block.
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

no this car will be on the street alot.. its mor of a street car than a drag car... but im up in the air with what to do, we run alot of sleeved hondas... but have never had to do it on a iron block..

i could just toss in another stock block and roll the dice.. but that would suck if it cracks again. Like i said im not the first guy to crack one. making 70-800whp on the dyno is one thing.. but to have the car in that power band for the whole 1/4 mile is hard on it.
klattr1
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3724
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC
Contact:

Post by klattr1 »

BRAD D wrote: i could just toss in another stock block and roll the dice.. but that would suck if it cracks again. Like i said im not the first guy to crack one. making 70-800whp on the dyno is one thing.. but to have the car in that power band for the whole 1/4 mile is hard on it.
I completely understand your scenario...I would hate for it to happen as well...you might want to call up Ivan and ask...if I remember right, he mentioned before he noticed less core shift on S13 blocks than S14 blocks...I think Steve (smracing) knows something about this too...Ivan may have had his ultrasonically checked.

I didn't realize efeezi had the same problem until reading it...find out what overbore he was using. Also, not sure how much power the C4 auto is robbing, but your 600 whp may be 650 whp on a 5-speed car...so you are pushing it more (HP at the crank that is) at that level than people are with 5-speeds at 600 whp.
Last edited by klattr1 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

im sure the auto is robbing some power... well if i go with a stock block i will just tass in the old pistons.. they seem fine, i will have them out later today.. i will just get new rings.

but if i get a sleeved block i will get new pistons as well..
User avatar
smracing
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:16 pm
Location: Carlsbad, NM

Post by smracing »

The older the block, the less core shift. I've measured many blocks. I bet your 600 thru the convertor and trans on the dyno is an honest 700+ thru a 5 speed. Turbo cars really push thru a loose convertor. The track will show more power than the dyno due to less load. I'm really interested in the price of the sleeved blocks.
klattr1
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3724
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 10:22 pm
Location: Charlotte, NC
Contact:

Post by klattr1 »

guys, call Rick at Import DPS to get pricing on their sleeved block program: 215-227-6000
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

i have been asking him some questions on line as well, not too sure if they want to sell just the blocks at this point.

i called darton and they gave me some info on guys that were installing sleeves.. i will post up info when i get some from the machine shop:D



if these blocks are not good for the street i will just get another stock block

the problem with the KA is the bore centers are pretty tight.. not a ton of room for sleeves, the guy at Darton know about the KA
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

how about a half fill? depending on what these guys say about the sleeved block (street use and not some super high price)

http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1444721
User avatar
smracing
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:16 pm
Location: Carlsbad, NM

Post by smracing »

If you have a good cooling system, you can fill to within 1 inch of the deck.
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

smracing wrote:If you have a good cooling system, you can fill to within 1 inch of the deck.
but i would have to keep the bottom open for flow right? so would it have to be like this one on honda tech? a space for water on the bottom and a space on the top?



look at the hp data base..... not a ton of guys in the 700-800 range.. the top guy has a sleeved block, the two 800ho guys i dont konw much about, do they drag race? and half of the 700hp guys have cracked blocks... i dont like them odds :(

after ivan cracked that block and went with the new motor... where did he and the car go? did he have more trouble? i know he got close to pulling a 8sec pass.
User avatar
NPD
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:39 am

Post by NPD »

BRAD D wrote:
smracing wrote:If you have a good cooling system, you can fill to within 1 inch of the deck.
but i would have to keep the bottom open for flow right? so would it have to be like this one on honda tech? a space for water on the bottom and a space on the top?



look at the hp data base..... not a ton of guys in the 700-800 range.. the top guy has a sleeved block, the two 800ho guys i dont konw much about, do they drag race? and half of the 700hp guys have cracked blocks... i dont like them odds :(

after ivan cracked that block and went with the new motor... where did he and the car go? did he have more trouble? i know he got close to pulling a 8sec pass.
unfortunately my car hasn't made it to the drag strip since I don't have a cage yet. I keep on spending money on my engine/ecu development. :? :?
HKS T51R-KAI
MoTeC
802rwhp so far....
User avatar
Kfred
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3513
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:12 am
Location: Baton Rouge, LA

Post by Kfred »

^ Bring it to the track and let off after the 1/8 a few passes. Once you are comfortable with the car go all out and get booted off the track.
RIP Nate(480sx)...
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

Taking it to the track puts a lot of load on the motor. I hope stock blocks can handle it. But like I posted above we don't have the best odds.
User avatar
smracing
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 740
Joined: Mon May 22, 2006 12:16 pm
Location: Carlsbad, NM

Post by smracing »

If you fill the block that high I would run the cooling system like I did. You need an electric inline pump (mine is mounted directly to the radiator) and circulate the coolant from the from of back of the head thru the freeze port out thru the intake manifold. Maybe with some clever placement of tubes you could leave a passage open to uses the stock pump.
Image
Image
Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

Story time

Ok.. 2 years ago when i was racing my car the converter was just too tight, i was getting tired of sending it in and try'n to change the tune to get it to spool up on the t-brake.... so i installed a small dry shot. it would only kick in when the tbrake button was pushed and the boost was 0 and the rpm was.. well i forget it was where ever the converter flashed to lets say 2700rpm.

I was at the track with a 0.025jet and it was working but not fast enough to cut a light.. so i went around asking for jets a guy gave me one and we thought it was about a 75hp shot.... put it in and boom it was working fast. the kit would turn off after the car hit hit 10psi or so and the turbo would stall it the rest of the way... the nos was never on down the track just for a second to help the spool.


so today i was thinking about it... what was that jet that i installed 2 years ago, went to the shop and pulled it out. 0.063.. I dont know any thing about jets so i look it up.. turns out its a 150hp shot...

now a 150 shot at that low of RPM is huge TQ... i have to down load my map to see where it kicked in.


do you guys think thats what did it? the pistons looked good and the head never lifted.. if i recall ivan used a huge spool up shot as well
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

one more funny thing.... the 3 guys that cracked blocks all were running C4 autos LOL
User avatar
NPD
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:39 am

Post by NPD »

BRAD D wrote:Taking it to the track puts a lot of load on the motor. I hope stock blocks can handle it. But like I posted above we don't have the best odds.
I was curious what kind of dyno you did your initial tuning on? I have alot, I mean ALOT of passes on the DynaPak loaded up alot. IMHO I think the amount of load I put on my motor with the DynaPak is really close to track conditions if not a hair more.
HKS T51R-KAI
MoTeC
802rwhp so far....
User avatar
NPD
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:39 am

Post by NPD »

Kfred wrote:^ Bring it to the track and let off after the 1/8 a few passes. Once you are comfortable with the car go all out and get booted off the track.
LOL, that's what all my friends tell me to do too.
HKS T51R-KAI
MoTeC
802rwhp so far....
User avatar
TheOne
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Posts: 392
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 11:04 pm
Location: TX

Post by TheOne »

A 150 shot that low is bad, shouldn't be doin that much before like 3k rpm, lol, but wouldn't that like...make a nice hole in the piston and what not?


I've seen a couple dyno vids where the guy pushes the button too early and Things didn't go so well after that.
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

we use a superflow dyno, also keep in that a auto going down the track with a loose converter holds the car in the "sweet spot" the whole time.

im not too sure where the shot was kicking in.. but i thought it was a smaller shot at the time..

:x
User avatar
NPD
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 101
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 12:39 am

Post by NPD »

yeah that's right. you've got two components that I don't have, which I think would definitely be a factor. the auto trans and nitrous. I've actually done quite a few passes on the dyno loaded through the gears but I don't have nitrous or an auto so I'm thinking you are going to have more load on your motor than mine.
HKS T51R-KAI
MoTeC
802rwhp so far....
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

hard to say.. i think it depends on when the shot truns off.. i will check what RPM but im pretty sure it was 10-13psi where it turned off.. so what ever power it makes at that boost plus the shot.

but yeah a auto holds the car at pretty much peak power through all the gears, the rpm does not drop much.
efeezi
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 697
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 5:01 pm
Location: Oklahoma City, OK

Post by efeezi »

Yea i was squeezing 125 shot at a really low rpm on the t-brake more than a few times.

Ive since just swapped in a new block and the car is 5 spd again so we'll see what happens. I should have it back on the dyno this weekend maybe.
300zx single turbo
715rwhp GT42
91white_ka
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:50 am
Location: New Orleans, La
Contact:

Post by 91white_ka »

I ran nitrous on a stock ka for quite awhile. It was freshly rebuilt but with all stock parts. I forget what the sizes of the gets were but on the nitrous calulater I was using it came out to a 121 shot and was supposed to be 102 at the wheels. I wasn't tuning with any kind of engine management so my "safety equipment" was sizing the fuel jet slighty larger and running 18 degrees base timing. I ran several bottles through the motor with this setup frequently doing compression tests to monitor any kind of damage. The setup ran flawless until I agreed to a 25 roll which as you all know is just about the top of first gear, and in second its about 2600 rpms.
Well I hit it, (and won) but the headgasket blew. I firmly believe that the only reason it blew was because that was the weakest link. The kick of hitting the nitrous that low in the powerband was far greater than any other time I used it. I don't have any kind of dyno data to back you could deffinetly tell it hit a lot harder. Just my experience with nitrous, hope it helps in some way.

Also I pulled the head the next day to replace the headgasket, not signs of damage to anything as far as hard parts. Just looked like the pressure went for the easiest way out which was the felpro headgasket.
duncan351
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 890
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2004 12:55 am
Location: Denton, TX
Contact:

Post by duncan351 »

Brad brought up an interesting point. Out of the three failures all three were running C4 Autos. That's a very interesting stat.
843whp @ 40psi
761/596 Tq 33psi 6766
http://www.enginerebuild.net
"Anyone can make power but how long can you make it last?"
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

well i took out the pistons... the bearings are mint, the rings are not stuck from the lands being collapsed, the tops of the pistons are nice, no pits or melted edges..

so in other words the block was the weak link, even the head gasket with non L19 11mm heads dod not lift.


if i go with a billet 67/65 im going to want to lay the boots to this new motor build.. i will have to spool up with a 100shot or so to get on top of the converter.
Post Reply