Sleeved block
Sleeved block
well im starting to wonder just how strong these blocks are, after pulling my motor apart i have found that two of the jugs have hair line cracks. this took place at low 600whp at the track,the psitons seem fine.
so it seems that a few of us have had this problem,what do do now is the question. I dont want to risk just installing another block... too much time wasted if it splits again.
I would run another type of motor like a RB26 but i have too much invested in the KA to give up (fully built head,rods,nitride crank,power train ect...)
So who is sleaving blocks? who has them? im a bit worried about this because sleeving can bring on some problems of its own. Is DPS the only guys that have done it?
so it seems that a few of us have had this problem,what do do now is the question. I dont want to risk just installing another block... too much time wasted if it splits again.
I would run another type of motor like a RB26 but i have too much invested in the KA to give up (fully built head,rods,nitride crank,power train ect...)
So who is sleaving blocks? who has them? im a bit worried about this because sleeving can bring on some problems of its own. Is DPS the only guys that have done it?
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Re: Sleeved block
don't switch motors...the RB26 has inherent design flaws (as I'm sure you know) that you'll have to accomodate for when building a motor for this level too...and when it comes down to it, the KA setup will be cheaper in the long run.
i'm wondering if yours was just an isolated problem or if your cylinder walls built up too much rust from sitting too long and formed a crack in result...why did you stop driving it originally? was the head lifting? did winter come and you just stopped driving it?
otherwise, i haven't seen or heard anyone else cracking cylinder walls at 600-700 whp/30-35 psi.
i'm wondering if yours was just an isolated problem or if your cylinder walls built up too much rust from sitting too long and formed a crack in result...why did you stop driving it originally? was the head lifting? did winter come and you just stopped driving it?
otherwise, i haven't seen or heard anyone else cracking cylinder walls at 600-700 whp/30-35 psi.
was at the track running back to back mid 10s... took the car home seen it was getting hot when i floored it so i thought i lifted the head.
did not touch it for 2 years untill now.
you can see one of the cracks was there while the motor was running, it has a polished look to it where the crack stuck out into the piston.
did not touch it for 2 years untill now.
you can see one of the cracks was there while the motor was running, it has a polished look to it where the crack stuck out into the piston.
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Brad, will you be street driving your car any? If not and you are all 100% drag, then I was going to suggest just hard-blocking (grout filling) your engine (even without a sleeve)...that should be keep the cylinder walls durable under extreme pressure...but then again if it's a street car, then you'll run into problems with the motor running hot.
Having the sleeve/liner like Import DPS is setting them up as makes sense from a serviceability standpoint for all-out drag cars, so that way you never have to machine/bore the block again - in their case where they are pushing 1100 whp and 60 psi and need to install an new engine liner same weekend on a previously used block.
Having the sleeve/liner like Import DPS is setting them up as makes sense from a serviceability standpoint for all-out drag cars, so that way you never have to machine/bore the block again - in their case where they are pushing 1100 whp and 60 psi and need to install an new engine liner same weekend on a previously used block.
no this car will be on the street alot.. its mor of a street car than a drag car... but im up in the air with what to do, we run alot of sleeved hondas... but have never had to do it on a iron block..
i could just toss in another stock block and roll the dice.. but that would suck if it cracks again. Like i said im not the first guy to crack one. making 70-800whp on the dyno is one thing.. but to have the car in that power band for the whole 1/4 mile is hard on it.
i could just toss in another stock block and roll the dice.. but that would suck if it cracks again. Like i said im not the first guy to crack one. making 70-800whp on the dyno is one thing.. but to have the car in that power band for the whole 1/4 mile is hard on it.
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I completely understand your scenario...I would hate for it to happen as well...you might want to call up Ivan and ask...if I remember right, he mentioned before he noticed less core shift on S13 blocks than S14 blocks...I think Steve (smracing) knows something about this too...Ivan may have had his ultrasonically checked.BRAD D wrote: i could just toss in another stock block and roll the dice.. but that would suck if it cracks again. Like i said im not the first guy to crack one. making 70-800whp on the dyno is one thing.. but to have the car in that power band for the whole 1/4 mile is hard on it.
I didn't realize efeezi had the same problem until reading it...find out what overbore he was using. Also, not sure how much power the C4 auto is robbing, but your 600 whp may be 650 whp on a 5-speed car...so you are pushing it more (HP at the crank that is) at that level than people are with 5-speeds at 600 whp.
Last edited by klattr1 on Tue Sep 07, 2010 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The older the block, the less core shift. I've measured many blocks. I bet your 600 thru the convertor and trans on the dyno is an honest 700+ thru a 5 speed. Turbo cars really push thru a loose convertor. The track will show more power than the dyno due to less load. I'm really interested in the price of the sleeved blocks.
i have been asking him some questions on line as well, not too sure if they want to sell just the blocks at this point.
i called darton and they gave me some info on guys that were installing sleeves.. i will post up info when i get some from the machine shop:D
if these blocks are not good for the street i will just get another stock block
the problem with the KA is the bore centers are pretty tight.. not a ton of room for sleeves, the guy at Darton know about the KA
i called darton and they gave me some info on guys that were installing sleeves.. i will post up info when i get some from the machine shop:D
if these blocks are not good for the street i will just get another stock block
the problem with the KA is the bore centers are pretty tight.. not a ton of room for sleeves, the guy at Darton know about the KA
how about a half fill? depending on what these guys say about the sleeved block (street use and not some super high price)
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1444721
http://honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1444721
but i would have to keep the bottom open for flow right? so would it have to be like this one on honda tech? a space for water on the bottom and a space on the top?smracing wrote:If you have a good cooling system, you can fill to within 1 inch of the deck.
look at the hp data base..... not a ton of guys in the 700-800 range.. the top guy has a sleeved block, the two 800ho guys i dont konw much about, do they drag race? and half of the 700hp guys have cracked blocks... i dont like them odds
after ivan cracked that block and went with the new motor... where did he and the car go? did he have more trouble? i know he got close to pulling a 8sec pass.
unfortunately my car hasn't made it to the drag strip since I don't have a cage yet. I keep on spending money on my engine/ecu development.BRAD D wrote:but i would have to keep the bottom open for flow right? so would it have to be like this one on honda tech? a space for water on the bottom and a space on the top?smracing wrote:If you have a good cooling system, you can fill to within 1 inch of the deck.
look at the hp data base..... not a ton of guys in the 700-800 range.. the top guy has a sleeved block, the two 800ho guys i dont konw much about, do they drag race? and half of the 700hp guys have cracked blocks... i dont like them odds
after ivan cracked that block and went with the new motor... where did he and the car go? did he have more trouble? i know he got close to pulling a 8sec pass.
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If you fill the block that high I would run the cooling system like I did. You need an electric inline pump (mine is mounted directly to the radiator) and circulate the coolant from the from of back of the head thru the freeze port out thru the intake manifold. Maybe with some clever placement of tubes you could leave a passage open to uses the stock pump.
Story time
Ok.. 2 years ago when i was racing my car the converter was just too tight, i was getting tired of sending it in and try'n to change the tune to get it to spool up on the t-brake.... so i installed a small dry shot. it would only kick in when the tbrake button was pushed and the boost was 0 and the rpm was.. well i forget it was where ever the converter flashed to lets say 2700rpm.
I was at the track with a 0.025jet and it was working but not fast enough to cut a light.. so i went around asking for jets a guy gave me one and we thought it was about a 75hp shot.... put it in and boom it was working fast. the kit would turn off after the car hit hit 10psi or so and the turbo would stall it the rest of the way... the nos was never on down the track just for a second to help the spool.
so today i was thinking about it... what was that jet that i installed 2 years ago, went to the shop and pulled it out. 0.063.. I dont know any thing about jets so i look it up.. turns out its a 150hp shot...
now a 150 shot at that low of RPM is huge TQ... i have to down load my map to see where it kicked in.
do you guys think thats what did it? the pistons looked good and the head never lifted.. if i recall ivan used a huge spool up shot as well
Ok.. 2 years ago when i was racing my car the converter was just too tight, i was getting tired of sending it in and try'n to change the tune to get it to spool up on the t-brake.... so i installed a small dry shot. it would only kick in when the tbrake button was pushed and the boost was 0 and the rpm was.. well i forget it was where ever the converter flashed to lets say 2700rpm.
I was at the track with a 0.025jet and it was working but not fast enough to cut a light.. so i went around asking for jets a guy gave me one and we thought it was about a 75hp shot.... put it in and boom it was working fast. the kit would turn off after the car hit hit 10psi or so and the turbo would stall it the rest of the way... the nos was never on down the track just for a second to help the spool.
so today i was thinking about it... what was that jet that i installed 2 years ago, went to the shop and pulled it out. 0.063.. I dont know any thing about jets so i look it up.. turns out its a 150hp shot...
now a 150 shot at that low of RPM is huge TQ... i have to down load my map to see where it kicked in.
do you guys think thats what did it? the pistons looked good and the head never lifted.. if i recall ivan used a huge spool up shot as well
I was curious what kind of dyno you did your initial tuning on? I have alot, I mean ALOT of passes on the DynaPak loaded up alot. IMHO I think the amount of load I put on my motor with the DynaPak is really close to track conditions if not a hair more.BRAD D wrote:Taking it to the track puts a lot of load on the motor. I hope stock blocks can handle it. But like I posted above we don't have the best odds.
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yeah that's right. you've got two components that I don't have, which I think would definitely be a factor. the auto trans and nitrous. I've actually done quite a few passes on the dyno loaded through the gears but I don't have nitrous or an auto so I'm thinking you are going to have more load on your motor than mine.
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hard to say.. i think it depends on when the shot truns off.. i will check what RPM but im pretty sure it was 10-13psi where it turned off.. so what ever power it makes at that boost plus the shot.
but yeah a auto holds the car at pretty much peak power through all the gears, the rpm does not drop much.
but yeah a auto holds the car at pretty much peak power through all the gears, the rpm does not drop much.
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I ran nitrous on a stock ka for quite awhile. It was freshly rebuilt but with all stock parts. I forget what the sizes of the gets were but on the nitrous calulater I was using it came out to a 121 shot and was supposed to be 102 at the wheels. I wasn't tuning with any kind of engine management so my "safety equipment" was sizing the fuel jet slighty larger and running 18 degrees base timing. I ran several bottles through the motor with this setup frequently doing compression tests to monitor any kind of damage. The setup ran flawless until I agreed to a 25 roll which as you all know is just about the top of first gear, and in second its about 2600 rpms.
Well I hit it, (and won) but the headgasket blew. I firmly believe that the only reason it blew was because that was the weakest link. The kick of hitting the nitrous that low in the powerband was far greater than any other time I used it. I don't have any kind of dyno data to back you could deffinetly tell it hit a lot harder. Just my experience with nitrous, hope it helps in some way.
Also I pulled the head the next day to replace the headgasket, not signs of damage to anything as far as hard parts. Just looked like the pressure went for the easiest way out which was the felpro headgasket.
Well I hit it, (and won) but the headgasket blew. I firmly believe that the only reason it blew was because that was the weakest link. The kick of hitting the nitrous that low in the powerband was far greater than any other time I used it. I don't have any kind of dyno data to back you could deffinetly tell it hit a lot harder. Just my experience with nitrous, hope it helps in some way.
Also I pulled the head the next day to replace the headgasket, not signs of damage to anything as far as hard parts. Just looked like the pressure went for the easiest way out which was the felpro headgasket.
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Brad brought up an interesting point. Out of the three failures all three were running C4 Autos. That's a very interesting stat.
843whp @ 40psi
761/596 Tq 33psi 6766
http://www.enginerebuild.net
"Anyone can make power but how long can you make it last?"
761/596 Tq 33psi 6766
http://www.enginerebuild.net
"Anyone can make power but how long can you make it last?"
well i took out the pistons... the bearings are mint, the rings are not stuck from the lands being collapsed, the tops of the pistons are nice, no pits or melted edges..
so in other words the block was the weak link, even the head gasket with non L19 11mm heads dod not lift.
if i go with a billet 67/65 im going to want to lay the boots to this new motor build.. i will have to spool up with a 100shot or so to get on top of the converter.
so in other words the block was the weak link, even the head gasket with non L19 11mm heads dod not lift.
if i go with a billet 67/65 im going to want to lay the boots to this new motor build.. i will have to spool up with a 100shot or so to get on top of the converter.