KA24DE oil pump performance data

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savatoge
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KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by savatoge »

Anyone know what the DE oil pump flow specs are at different RPM points? I've been searching all over the place to find some kind of data on what kind of GPM flow values the DE oil pump produces at different RPM points. I know that this can vary depending on the type of oil being used and oil temps, I'm just looking for some ballpark numbers. Thanks.
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Post by eazye2000 »

I'd like to get some info too. I just ordered a new set of pump gears, and a new regulator set for my front cover. I want to make it pump a little more than stock. I hear you can shim them, so I got some research to do.
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Post by savatoge »

eazye2000 wrote:I'd like to get some info too. I just ordered a new set of pump gears, and a new regulator set for my front cover. I want to make it pump a little more than stock. I hear you can shim them, so I got some research to do.
Operating oil pressure is a pretty complex topic. With that in mind, it helps to try and think like OEM engineers to try and understand why the stock configuration is designed like it is. When a stock motor is running at higher operational speeds, the oil supplied by the oil pump exceeds the capacity of the engine to utilize it. As a result, an oil pressure relief valve is used to prevent an oversupply of oil.

This leads me to believe that OEM engineers are more concerned with flow than pressure and that the stock design is more than adequate up to the stock redline, most likely with the capability of supplying adequate oil flow even at slightly higher operational engine speeds than stock.

Modified motors are a different story and the necessary system oil pressure is going to be different from motor to motor depending on the bearing clearances spec'd during the build. However, the majority of us who have built motors more than likely are running bearing clearances that are pretty close to stock specs...and as such, we probably need to focus more on increasing flow while operating below the stock (or slightly higher) relief valve pressure.

I think a lot of people are shimming their relief spring when they probably shouldn't and are more than likely experiencing problems as a result. Granted, increasing oil pressure will increase flow, however, pressure increases as the square of flow (prefaced by maintaining the same amount of restriction in the system)...translated, a great deal of pressure increase is required to achieve a small amount of increased flow.

With increased oil pressure at higher RPMs, the amount of oil collecting in the head will increase at a higher rate than OEM engineers designed to be accommodated by the amount of excess oil in the pan. Piston squirters will be placing a higher amount of oil onto the pistons (and cylinder walls), making it more difficult for the oil control rings to scrub away excess oil. Oil aeration is increased, produced by a combination of the higher amount of oil in the head, higher amount of oil being spun around by the crank, as well as the pressure drop on oil that travels across the oil pump relief valve, all making it more difficult for the pump to achieve proper oil supply. Higher operation pump pressures result in increased parasitic hp losses. And some oil filters have internal bypasses that will open at increased pressures, allowing unfiltered oil to circulate through the motor. A whole host of undesirable side effects, all at the expense of trying to achieve increased oil flow from the stock oil pump.

All of this has lead me to begin researching a means to increase oil flow output while operating at lower to medium engine speeds, all while still maintaining OEM peak oil pressures...basically a higher flow output oil pump. I have performed some pressure loss calculations for operating a remote oil filter and oil cooler and let me tell you, the numbers aren't pretty with the initial GPM values I have been using...I'd really like to know what the actual GPM numbers are so I can calculate the actual head loss I'm operating with. At the end of the day, it's looking like a bigger pump is necessary, but there does not seem to be a wide selection available for the DE. The SOHC guys can switch to a 280ZX pump IIRC, but what options are available for the DOHC motor?

Sorry for the long post...just had a lot I wanted to put out there for discussion if anyone is interested.
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Post by Alonso »

Over-oiling the valvetrain with an upgraded oil pump is also a concern on RB engines. They change the restrictor in the block that feeds to the head.

I'm not an engine building master, but this is what I have read. You should look into it.
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Post by keytops »

Not a toga pump! I had one on my old KA after head work and the damn thing wouldn't even build enough pressure to turn off the idiot light. I pulled the cover so many times trying to get that thing to flow, played with the relief, open and oiled/moly lubed everything replaced o ring on the pick up twice and tried RTV. Bad customer service, and although the casting looked nice it was a waste of $300. a quick googling reveals similar accounts. OEM got that poor KA this far didn't it lol.
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Post by schmauster920 »

Yeah ive heard the toga pumps are horrible too, google around and you'll find a few threads with horror stories
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Post by Darkgrey240 »

Good info.
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Post by sr20drag »

thanks for the insight
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Post by sdaigle240 »

haha ur always up to the nerdiest ****, and i love it.
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Post by bane »

remember pressure is inversly proportional to volume. i think right now the only thing we can do is leave the pump alone and run a good quality oil. you've got me thinking though lol

Dry sump is always an option but of course it'll cost about as much as you would have in a long block assembly.
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Post by Jmcc »

Alonso wrote:Over-oiling the valvetrain with an upgraded oil pump is also a concern on RB engines. They change the restrictor in the block that feeds to the head.

I'm not an engine building master, but this is what I have read. You should look into it.
but isn't the rb a hydrolic lifter like sr's and ca's???? if so then i can see why its a problem. i know of ppl with v8's that drill out the main bearings and oil pump assy. to get them to flow more oil through every thing. i havn't looked at my extra ka stuff yet to see if i could do this to mine to flow more oil through every thing on my next build.
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Post by Ichi-Go »

I always thought it would be a good idea to shim the oil pump them run a thinner oil to get the pressure down. Run thin oil and have a lot of flow since the pump is shimmed.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

any more insight to this, im comming up on the same questions, as im believing the sohc doesnt get enough flow.

what is the ideal volume for the bearings to be supplied with?

we'll assume modertat oil temps 220f ish.

same thig , what about pressure drop going though the oil cooler?

since the moleculed are going to shrink as they cool, and the volume remains the same, so the pressure must drop.. how much is this though...
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Post by hsitko »

I work on hydraulics for a living. I have taken several fluid dynamics classes. What you really want to instill in people is not that flow will increase at the square of pressure. That is just horribly misleading. Pressure and flow have an inverse relationship. Bernoulli's principal shows that for an inviscid flow the flow increases with a decrease in pressure. The only real way to increase flow is by increasing displacement. Re worked pump gears opened up oil passages etc. In hydraulics we use variable displacement pumps to achieve this goal.

Everything related to fluid dynamics is greek to your brains logic centers. You cant reason out good aerodynamics or flow numbers. Tons and tons of testing must be done in order to properly make positive changes to these things. And its very likely that you will do more harm than good. I cant tell you how many ae86 kids i have seen with my own two eyes shim their oil pumps. Doing so while i tell them why they should not be doing such things.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

Im well aware of the ill effects of higher pressure., how ever, the ka24 was not designed to support feeding a open top end, or a turbo requiring more oil flow. not pressure.|

feel free to chime in on my oiling thread, not the pump data,


from, my understanding, as long as i regulate the presssure due to flow increase, and have a regulator that can handle it, nI should be good.

im looking into a helicopter oil pump twm, as most dry sump pumps are too much.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

Clarification:

raising the pressure by changing the viscosity of the oil REDUCES flow.

raising the pressure by changing the pump output pressure INCREASES flow.

BUT!! if the increased pressure trips the pressure releif valve early, oil FLOW then remains constant to redline, rather than increasing as it should.


source: http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-201/


yeah im on an oil kick, just bumpin an oldie to add some info.
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Post by smbonn2005 »

^ On the same reference, you want about 10psi per 1k RPM. So use the thinnest oil possible to get both good pressure and good flow.

Too thick of an oil (a lot of the people using Rotella) will give you great pressure but doesn't flow as well... You need BOTH to keep your motor happy.

Everyone really should read through the stuff on bobistheoilguy.com as he has a lot of little known or understood information there.
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Post by beercandrifter »

smbonn2005 wrote:^ On the same reference, you want about 10psi per 1k RPM. So use the thinnest oil possible to get both good pressure and good flow.

Too thick of an oil (a lot of the people using Rotella) will give you great pressure but doesn't flow as well... You need BOTH to keep your motor happy.

Everyone really should read through the stuff on bobistheoilguy.com as he has a lot of little known or understood information there.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by 1SikS13 »

bobistheoilguy.com has tons of useful info
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by gtrpryde »

Bump for update info. Read daigles thread on bitog and it looked like 0w-40 seemed ideal for your app. Just wondering if there's been new discoveries.

I'm running Amsoil 0w-30 from their Signature Series and the oil pressure was much lower at 3k than factory recommendation. I think the 50psi range. It's strictly a street car, at most there may be drag racing as it is now.
Wondering if I should switch to a 0-10w-40. Stock block 50 trim pump gas. I'm sure I could run whatever and be fine, but in the spirit of "being reliable" I'd like th best oil match possible.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by duncan351 »

All honesty the best oil weight match I have found is the Mobile 1 0W-40. Its been perfect. Oil pressure keeps rising to about 65-70ish to readline. I also run the Mobile 1 oil filters. Less restrictive of a filter.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by Altima-DET »

Duncan is still alive and kicking in the KA-t world?!?!? It's been forever since you've posted lol
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by duncan351 »

Yea, I've been so busy with family and running my business. Plus the car was down for a long time because I got it painted and the entire car was stripped down, no doors, trunk, hood, windsheild, etc..... but its all back together and I am loving cruising it. Now it I can just get the big brother on the road.

Back on track here.... what I have noticed also is a good synthetic seems to hold up alot better than any dino oil due to the oil cooled turbocharger.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by gtrpryde »

So the FSM calls for 60-70 psi at 3000, does a 40 weight do this? Sound like Duncans hits that pressure at redline, which makes sense since the recommended max oil weight is a 40 anyway. It'd be nice to know if a 50 weight is the true ideal oil in our turbo'd KAs

I'll be running Amsoil 10w-40 100% syn eventually, I have 7 qts left over that I've been running in my evo. I'll post results when possible.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by sdaigle240 »

gtrpryde wrote:So the FSM calls for 60-70 psi at 3000, does a 40 weight do this? Sound like Duncans hits that pressure at redline, which makes sense since the recommended max oil weight is a 40 anyway. It'd be nice to know if a 50 weight is the true ideal oil in our turbo'd KAs

I'll be running Amsoil 10w-40 100% syn eventually, I have 7 qts left over that I've been running in my evo. I'll post results when possible.

happen to have 0w40 m1 in. at about 180-190F and 3k its at 60psi. OEM unmodified front cover with about 8-10k on it. i need to look specifically when it hits 85psi which i believe is the bypass. hitting that bypass early reduces flow to the internals. so you don't want to hit it too early but the FSM doesn't say when you should hit it. for these reasons, when street driving a thicker oil does not seem to be the best fit. i def think a 30 would be better for street with a cooler although i dont think youd see 60psi by 3k with 30wt. seems to be a bit of a trade off.

a 50wt is great for a track day. even the 40wt takes a looong time to get to operating temp and even with some rips the oil only gets to 200ish with a cooler for me. on track i hit 250-260 so the 40 and 50 is prime when in its element.


a 10w40 synthetic is actually a 40wt oil with additives to make it act like a 10 in cold temps. a 10w40 dino is actually a 10 weight with additives to make it act 40 when hot. so synthetic oils tend to shear less over time. its pretty common for a 40wt dino to shear to a 30 by the end of its service.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by gtrpryde »

Running Amsoil 0w-30 I was getting 50 psi at 3k, this was during a 45 min cruise, coolant temp at 185. I don't have a oil temp gauge yet. Thoughts?
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by sdaigle240 »

gtrpryde wrote:Running Amsoil 0w-30 I was getting 50 psi at 3k, this was during a 45 min cruise, coolant temp at 185. I don't have a oil temp gauge yet. Thoughts?
im sure its fine lol, im just a nerd ass engineer that cant help myself.

im also cheap and prefer to run cheap oil that i chage more often than that fancy stuff. i only run 1000 miles tops on oil. i only drive about 3-4k a season so...

def grab a temp gauge if you want to tinker with oil types. hard to recommend without knowing if your at say 180 or 220. if the later, a 40 would prob be appropriate for you.

cant go wrong with 30 or 40 on the streetz.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by sdaigle240 »

i also wanted to say im no pro and only know what ive read and experienced. for some reason i like playing with oil types and enjoy posting my experiences. I am by no means the say all of oil around here.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by gtrpryde »

Thanks for the reply, the more experience we can find the better.

I'll see how this run of amsoil 10w-40 goes. I do like extended drain times so i'll get an UOA at probably 5k and go from there, maybe longer if I really start driving it more. If I tracked the car I could see more frequent changes.
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Re: KA24DE oil pump performance data

Post by ka240de »

Mentioned earlier was about running higher pressure isnt always good. However many people suggest welding up the piston oil squirters when you upgradeyour rods specifically because an h-beam catches oil and flings it to the cylinder walls. Is it badto weld up your oil squirters ? How much does it increase oil pressure ?
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