Cryogenic treatments and stock pistons?

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Is getting the pistons cryo treated and ceramic coated worth it?

Poll ended at Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:33 am

Yeah GO for it!!
2
20%
Hell no! Step AWAY!
8
80%
 
Total votes: 10

El_Cangri
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Cryogenic treatments and stock pistons?

Post by El_Cangri » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:33 am

Hi there,

I search and googled but haven't found out of someone giving a cryogenic treatment to their stock pistons and running highboost with them. Maybe a 300hp goal?

I have a set of pistons laying around and thought about sending them to get treated but I don't know if the "strengthening" effects are worth if For example let's say stock pistons hold 200hp would a cryo treated hold let's say 250hp?

All I know theorycaly speaking is that cryo treatment would prevent "hot spots" on the pistons and would maintain the heat where it's "supposed" to be.

What if the pistons were also ceramic coated, would there be any gains in "strength"? Heat would be dissipated far more better than stock so could that translate to a little more boost?

Please make a well elaborated reply. I don't want a "don't do it" ir you are going to tell me that then explain to me why, same applies for the contrary. Also I am adding a post to get a more direct reply. Still it doesn't mean I'm going to go for the poll winner if there's no info backing it up.

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Post by ICEMAN.KCMO » Sun Aug 07, 2011 8:53 am

the stock block with good tuning has been proven to hold up to 400hp or 450 if i remember correct.. 300hp is your goal? you will be just fine on stock...
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myowncasualty
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Post by myowncasualty » Sun Aug 07, 2011 9:37 am

^agreed, I daily drive 400ish hp on stock internals, save your money for a good tune.
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Post by JankiS13 » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:49 am

Ceramic coating is proven to make power and keep heat out of the piston. It will definitely be beneficial. Might as well get the skirts dry film coated too.

www.swaintech.com. The best stuff on the market.

Cryo treatment, on the other hand, does nothing to aluminum, so it would be waste of money.
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Post by superDorifto » Sun Aug 07, 2011 11:26 am

for the cost and hassle of taking the motor apart, and getting stock parts coated/treated why not just kick in a few more dollars an buy forged internals? pistons ans rods only run like $700, and its insurance if you ever want to up the boost.

coatings are not cheap, I was quoted almost $200 to have my wisecos recoated - for another $200 I can buy a new set...doesn't seem very cost effective to me...I say either run it stock and tune it right/cross your fingers, or build it right.

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Post by El_Cangri » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:10 am

superDorifto wrote:for the cost and hassle of taking the motor apart, and getting stock parts coated/treated why not just kick in a few more dollars an buy forged internals? pistons ans rods only run like $700, and its insurance if you ever want to up the boost.

coatings are not cheap, I was quoted almost $200 to have my wisecos recoated - for another $200 I can buy a new set...doesn't seem very cost effective to me...I say either run it stock and tune it right/cross your fingers, or build it right.
I am a DIY. But I understand what you mean.
JankiS13 wrote:Ceramic coating is proven to make power and keep heat out of the piston. It will definitely be beneficial. Might as well get the skirts dry film coated too.

www.swaintech.com. The best stuff on the market.

Cryo treatment, on the other hand, does nothing to aluminum, so it would be waste of money. I didnt know this, need to read more.
ICEMAN.KCMO wrote:the stock block with good tuning has been proven to hold up to 400hp or 450 if i remember correct.. 300hp is your goal? you will be just fine on stock...
But I want to know, would it hold more than that after a treatment?

300hp is more like my current objective, after I get another car to use as DD I would like to reach 500hp+ depending on how the money comes and goes.

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Post by JankiS13 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:01 am

KA pistons definitely aren't the strongest. I would be scared of breaking ring lands above 400whp. That would definitely be time for upgraded pistons at least.

And yes, it will probably "hold more". But you better make sure your tune is spot-on.
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Post by supakat » Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:10 am

You can still break ring lands with low hp. The tune is the culprit. Once you get knock, that piston is hitting the sidewalls like mad.
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Post by JankiS13 » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:21 am

supakat wrote:You can still break ring lands with low hp. The tune is the culprit. Once you get knock, that piston is hitting the sidewalls like mad.
You are correct good sir. The more power, the faster things go wrong though. Obviously a tune that is as near to perfect as it gets helps reliability a ton.
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Post by El_Cangri » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:29 pm

Ok, now about the coatings, is it worth it even for "durability"? (letting the tuning aside).

Off-topic Right now I'm thinking on selling the stock pistons&rods and saving for the real thing. The only thing I'm scared are the machine shop prices and what procedures they should take (if any particular thing should be performed in the KA).

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Post by supakat » Tue Aug 09, 2011 4:12 am

You need to make up your mind. If you sell your pistons/rods, you might only get $40 for them. So don't plan on making money with them.
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Post by s13grady » Tue Aug 09, 2011 1:17 pm

save the money from coating or cryotreating.
If you want 300hp, a stock bottom end will take that no problem(assuming tuned correctly) for a substantial amount of time, depending on how you drive it.

JeffTaylor made 530 something horsepower on completely stock ka with a cometic hg but that was for a few pulls on a dyno(circa 2005 iirc), you know you cant bank on that engine holding up to that everyday.

you say you have intentions on possibly making 500 hp.
Best bet. Forged bottom end with some head studs and you should be gold.

maybe boost a stock motor for now to get acclimated and overtime you can find yourself a spare block to build.
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Post by superDorifto » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:29 pm

El_Cangri wrote:
But I want to know, would it hold more than that after a treatment?
From an engineering stand point...adding a coating is not going to do jack **** to the structural capabilities of the parent material. Those coatings have anti-wear and DFL Dry film lubricating properties.

Cryo treating the aluminum will help with the material properties, but its not going to magically give cast pistons the same properties as forged pistons....period.

So to answer you question, not enough to make it worth it.

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Post by Rick » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:07 pm

Okay - so in this scenario you are basically a jackass for even being concerned about cryo on a 300 or 400whp goal. You are talking about SELLING your stock pistons....come on guy. It sounds like you more interested in the process and planning and accelerating your knowledge base than you are in completing the project.

I am an Engineer (Civil, however started as a Mechanical) and through several of the Mat'l Sciences class I went though - the only way you are going to strengthen a metal object is by changing the lattice work of the molecular structure. This can ONLY be done by introducing some kind of energy, in this scenario it would be heat, into the object. The basics of heat treating, for example tempering, you are essentially trying to get the internal crystalline like structure to 'relax'. However, in order to get it to relax you can create other things like bainite, austenite, pearlite, (i dont remember the specifics) and then by quenching the object in oil or water or whatnot you are essentially now freezing that specific material, in that specific pattern, into the object. Each one has its own pros and cons.

Talking on a cryo level though I believe you want to have some sort of ausetnite already in the object, and the cryo is a means to increase martensite (I need to get out the books) which makes the metal tougher.

Heres the kicker - cryo treating is useless unless you know what heat treating was done on the object prior to you owning it. Cryo is useless for stock parts, and at the very least useless for what it sounds like you want to do.

However, if you were talking about Stoner's RC212V, or Vettel's F1 car - then you might have a good reason to look into heat treatment. If have your hear dead set on wanting to do something with these pistons because your so innovative (:lol:) then look into shot peening them. This essentially puts the outer layer of the metal in a state of compression which in turn will act like a shell. Shot peening creates something called plastic deformation which both will relieve internal stresses, and will also create a uniform compressive stress on the part.

[/rant/off]

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Post by JankiS13 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:44 am

I will say it again.

Cryo treating aluminum does nothing.

And good luck shotpeening aluminum.

Coatings will help whether you're using stock or aftermarket parts.

Cryotreating increases wear resistance, not hardness. They are different. And it only works on steel and iron and it's alloys, which have carbon in them.

Just decide what you want to do, and go with it.
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Post by superDorifto » Wed Aug 10, 2011 8:10 am

Rick wrote:in order to get it to relax you can create other things like bainite, austenite, pearlite,
And to get these materials...that part kinda needs to be made from carbon steel or a steel derived alloy.:D

Image

but everything else Rich said is right on the money, your not an alchemist. Stock cast pistons can not be made "stronger"

It is what it is

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Post by schmauster920 » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:33 pm

Cryo treatment will prevent hot spots....... what?

Or am I way off? :lol:


+1 for waste of time and money on disposable cast aluminum pieces of crap. I think you are still going to shatter the ring lands if you get any kind of detonation.


You will blow the welds on your intake with those pistons.
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Post by DeepSeaDynamo » Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:22 pm

schmauster920 wrote:You will blow the welds on your intake with those pistons.
Best use of that quote EVER

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Post by supakat » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:48 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pB-bN-RkJLM

@ 53 seconds. For those who may not know the quote. Gotta love it.
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Post by broken40s » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:14 pm

i put my pistons and rods in the freezer for like a week before i installed them. same effect, much cheaper. HAHA, just messin.
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Post by El_Cangri » Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:11 am

Rick wrote:Okay - so in this scenario you are basically a jackass for even being concerned about cryo on a 300 or 400whp goal. You are talking about SELLING your stock pistons....come on guy. It sounds like you more interested in the process and planning and accelerating your knowledge base than you are in completing the project.

I am an Engineer (Civil, however started as a Mechanical) and through several of the Mat'l Sciences class I went though - the only way you are going to strengthen a metal object is by changing the lattice work of the molecular structure. This can ONLY be done by introducing some kind of energy, in this scenario it would be heat, into the object. The basics of heat treating, for example tempering, you are essentially trying to get the internal crystalline like structure to 'relax'. However, in order to get it to relax you can create other things like bainite, austenite, pearlite, (i dont remember the specifics) and then by quenching the object in oil or water or whatnot you are essentially now freezing that specific material, in that specific pattern, into the object. Each one has its own pros and cons.

Talking on a cryo level though I believe you want to have some sort of ausetnite already in the object, and the cryo is a means to increase martensite (I need to get out the books) which makes the metal tougher.

Heres the kicker - cryo treating is useless unless you know what heat treating was done on the object prior to you owning it. Cryo is useless for stock parts, and at the very least useless for what it sounds like you want to do.

However, if you were talking about Stoner's RC212V, or Vettel's F1 car - then you might have a good reason to look into heat treatment. If have your hear dead set on wanting to do something with these pistons because your so innovative (:lol:) then look into shot peening them. This essentially puts the outer layer of the metal in a state of compression which in turn will act like a shell. Shot peening creates something called plastic deformation which both will relieve internal stresses, and will also create a uniform compressive stress on the part.

[/rant/off]

--Rick
Rick,
In my last post I was asking about the coatings. So your rant IMHO is worthless and I know what cryo does on paper.

I wanted to know more about cryo because I met a guy at the track; 5$ per piston he said and he also does the coatings. Less than a $100 for those treatments so I though about it. But with the first 5-7 replies I understood cryo is worthless.

I am going to sell the pistons because I currently have 8 laying around and a dollar is a dollar.

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