Don't know where to go with this... Timing issues

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pacotaco345
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Don't know where to go with this... Timing issues

Post by pacotaco345 »

Some of you may be familiar with me on zilvia but this is my first question/topic posted on this forum. I've asked this question already on the zilvia tech forum and got nothing, and even though my car is N/A hopefully someone can help me out. The motor is a 95 ka with 91 running gear on it (it's in my s13). When I first put the motor in the car it ran fine but had low oil pressure and timing chain rattle. While I was replacing my timing chains and oil pump I decided to do the 248/232 cam swap since I had the motor out. I rotated the intake cam gear 4 teeth counter-clockwise and buttoned everything up. The cams looked ok, both facing out at TDC when I stuck the motor in the car. Went to light it up and got a pop and a bang but no start. After several failed attempts at dropping the distributor I got it to start with about 12 degrees of timing and TERRIBLE idle, the car was shaking and popping, but it was running. When I would rev the car over 1500 rpm's it would settle down but not till then. I then moved the distributor over ONE tooth, and the timing was set at 25 degrees (the LOWEST I could get the timing). This is where the timing still is now. Car will idle at about 850 rpm's but anything under that it wants to die. Idk whats wrong, car is driveable now but its still annoying. All the dots on the timing gears are aligned with the marks on the chains, so I'm pretty sure I'm good in that area. I have iridium plugs w a new cap and rotor, but that didn't help much.. Any ideas would be welcome. Thanks!
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Post by Jmcc »

where you trying to set timing with the tps still pluged in??
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Post by supakat »

Take a pic of you cams at TDC. Sounds like you are 3 teeth back. With 4 teeth back, the intake cam is parallel to the floor.
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Post by pacotaco345 »

@Jmcc, I tried it with and without the tps plugged in, it made pretty much no difference. There just seems to be a 10* window of timing that I just can't get at, kinda like I'm missing a tooth on the dizzy but I know that I'm not.
@supakat, I'll post a pic of it tomorrow, would it even run if I had the cam a tooth off?

EDIT: I just googled and read some post about someone who had similar problems and rotated the cam one tooth clockwise (effective 3 teeth counterclockwise from original position) and it fixed his symptoms. I also remember hearing 3 teeth instead of 4 somewhere earlier but didn't give it much thought since the writeup said 4.. Should I just try that?
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Post by supakat »

I know what you mean. I ran into this issue when first doing it 5 years ago. If you count like a normal person does, valves will hit with four teeth which is 5 teeth per these directions. But the person who did this, counted the original timing mark as one.

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/cam-swap-ka24de.html

This is 4 teeth back. With 3 teeth, you can hear the cam more and it is a more aggressive idle which will clean up once you start revving.

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Post by pacotaco345 »

supakat wrote:I know what you mean. I ran into this issue when first doing it 5 years ago. If you count like a normal person does, valves will hit with four teeth which is 5 teeth per these directions. But the person who did this, counted the original timing mark as one.
That sounds like EXACTLY what I did.. -_- I'll go out and move the gear one tooth over and see what happens. Thanks!
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Post by NateDogg »

Why don't you just put the s13 cams in and have it run properly?

These 'cam swaps' are imprecise, potentially damage your motor if installed incorrectly and they don't even provide any decent gains.
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Post by pacotaco345 »

NateDogg wrote:Why don't you just put the s13 cams in and have it run properly?

These 'cam swaps' are imprecise, potentially damage your motor if installed incorrectly and they don't even provide any decent gains.
As it turns out it wasn't installed incorrectly.. It was good the way it was. Sadly, my issue is in the ignition timing, not cam timing. THE MOST I can advance it on one tooth is 14 degrees, and THE MOST I can retard it ONE TOOTH OVER is 25 degrees. In a spark of 17 year-old genius I though "Hey! Maybe I can pull the distributor gear off and spin it 180 degrees and fix my problems". Well, I didn't get the gear off and after half pulling apart the dizzy and putting it back together my car now has a legitimate rev limit at about 5k. Pulls hard up to 5k then it begins popping spitting and cracking, never to rev higher. I think I'm gonna go get another dizzy later today and see if that fixes it but who knows. :/ If I get the dizzy today I'll proly just throw the other cam back on and see if it changes anything, if my idle cleans up then I'll leave it.
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Post by supakat »

NateDogg wrote:they don't even provide any decent gains.
I beg to differ. We currently have 3 ka's running 248/248 and noticed gains. Especially the s14 due to the 232's they replaced. Also, why do retailers sell 248 cams. :dunno:

http://www.nismoparts.com/catalog/?section=324

http://www.nissanraceshop.com/product_i ... _id=332522
List Price $500.00 - 856.55
Our Price $381.00 - $640.08
These camshafts are designed for the KA24DE engine. The 91-94 240SX/S13 camshafts had a duration of 248 degrees and the 95 and later 240SX/S14 had a duration of 232 degrees. The #1 camshaft is a mild upgrade for the 95 and later 240SX and the #2 camshaft fits both the 240SX/S13 and the 240SX/S14.

240SX/S13, 240SX/S14
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Post by pacotaco345 »

Okay so I put the 232 intake cam back in (car now has 232/232 setup) and it idles perfectly fine at 700 rpm's. I haven't driven it around yet but it rev's fine up to 5 grand (due to my stupidity). I'm gonna go get another dizzy in a couple hours from a friend to fix that issue but other than that the car is fine now. The lowest I could get the timing was 25* advance though, should I be fine as long as I run 89 in the car?. Thanks everyone for the input!
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Post by schmauster920 »

You should be able to get it spot on... mark where it is now, then move it forward and back a tooth and it should be pretty close to centered when you are at 20
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Post by pacotaco345 »

schmauster920 wrote:You should be able to get it spot on... mark where it is now, then move it forward and back a tooth and it should be pretty close to centered when you are at 20
If I retard it a tooth then the most I can advance it is 14*.. Its really weird, kinda like I'm skipping a tooth when I drop the distributor but I know that I'm not.
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Post by supakat »

It is possible you damaged the CAS. Just get a working dizzy and verify your working good. Then drive for a month on 232/232. Change it to 248/248 and let me know what you think.
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Post by schmauster920 »

Ive had a really hard time finding the middle tooth where it was spot on, it seems easy to skip teeth, maybe give it another shot? Just a suggestion

You should be able to see the TDC alignment marks on the distributor when you pull it out, theres two, it will line up with one, then it will slide over and line up with the other when its seated and centered.
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Post by pacotaco345 »

@Supakat: For now I think I'm done messing with cam swaps.. atleast until I have the time/money to get legitimate cams and a tune, I felt the difference with the setup that I just pulled out of my car, It was just too much driveability sacrifice for the power gains.
@schumauster920: I'm gonna end up re-dropping the distributor when I go pick up this other one, so we'll see when I get that. Hopefully it'll sort itself out. If not.. whatever haha
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Post by supakat »

I just read your first post, 248/248 is the ideal way not 248/232. Vinny Ten Racing said something that I will never forget. You must shlt out what ever you eat. Also, majority of cam upgrades are done in pairs. 248/248, 262/262, 272/272, etc. I blame ignorance for your issues. Doing upgrades to a motor without thinking it through properly or using common sense is going to hinder you back.
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Post by NateDogg »

If you want your distributor to line up and get your timing and performance back, you're going to have to re-install the upper chain and the upper timing sprocket.

Scroll down to the last post to see the mark on the sprocket.

http://ka-t.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=49594&start=60

Also, if you google 'fix an incorrectly installed lower timing chain' you will get a nice article with better pics.
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Post by pacotaco345 »

SOOooooo.... This is really starting to annoy me, fix one thing and two others break etc. timing gears are where they should be, new dizzy, new plug wires, new cap n rotor, irridium plugs, timing is where it should be etc. Started the car up and went for a trip around the block and it pulled great for the first minute of the trip then it started acting up a lil.. hesitating to rev, surging etc. Not nearly as bad as before but it was there. Pulled codes out of the ecu, got 32 (predicted that) 34 (knock sensor what else is new) and 21.. 21!?!?! wtf?? (primary ignition signal) now this code is new.. never had it before. Now I cleared the code and the car doesn't even wanna do anything.. It surges so bad its hard just to get the car in my driveway. I checked the FSM and it said to check a) the coil b) the power transistor (ignitor chip) c) the resistor and d) the plugs that power the coil. Is is safe to rule out the coil, resistor and plugs? Because my car still runs.. it just runs terrible, I tested the ignitor chip and it tested bad however I have a terrible electrical tester so idk.. And I really don't wanna waste more money.

EDIT: is there a way I can bypass the ignitor chip to see if thats the problem?
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Post by NateDogg »

Don't worry about the ignition.

Check all the grounds. There is one at the bottom of the battery tray that usually rusts out.

Other than that, perform the 'wiggle test'..

Check the MAF, CTS and TPS.

Also, could be a vacuum leak.
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Post by pacotaco345 »

If it wasn't the ignition why would it send out the code 21?.. and what is the wiggle test? I'm willing to try just about anything at this point.. Also I don't really want to sound too much like a noob but if you could list common grounds aside from the battery tray one I should check it would help a ton. Thanks!
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Post by p00t »

pacotaco345 wrote:If it wasn't the ignition why would it send out the code 21?.. and what is the wiggle test? I'm willing to try just about anything at this point.. Also I don't really want to sound too much like a noob but if you could list common grounds aside from the battery tray one I should check it would help a ton. Thanks!
Nate suggested that because if you have bad grounds the codes the ECU throws are meaningless. Bad grounds cause electronics to go ****. All your main cables and connectors should get checked.
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Post by DeepSeaDynamo »

you wiggle the wires to see if anything changes, if it does that indicates a bad connector
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Post by pacotaco345 »

Well I checked all the grounds that I know of, and they were all good.. I'm gonna pick up an ignitor chip from a friend tomorrow and see if that helps anything at all.
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