First dyno disappointment...

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robertduhon
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First dyno disappointment...

Post by robertduhon » Sun Apr 14, 2013 12:20 am

So, I had my car dynoed Saturday (today being Sunday 2am) on a dyno dynamic dyno and the numbers weren't what I expected at all.

Set-up:
Drive assembly balanced
Arias pistons 8.8:1
Pauter rods
Kelford 272 stage 2 turbo cams
3" turbo back cat-less exhaust
Blue ridge motorsports ram horn turbo manifold
Ported and polished head
Basic valve seating
Cometic head gasket w/ Arp head studs
Large fmic
Aero motive fpr
Deatschwerks 550cc injectors
Garret t3/t40e .63a/r 50trim with .60 housing
Nistune
Stock intake manifold ported
Tial 44mm wg
Greddy bov
Lots more that has nothing to do with the motor

With all that said, it made 272.8whp at 16 psi. I have been reading about others making well over this with bigger injectors, same turbo and around a little higher psi. How can others make 350 to 400 whp at 19psi on the same turbo?? I'm waiting on them to email me the numbers so I can show them.

Am I just butt hurt from all the money I spent for it to not be what I expected or is this something I should be upset with? It pulls great and feels fast but not impressive. It's my first build so I'm learning. Not sure if something is wrong or what.

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Post by RosadoRacing » Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:05 am

What's your injector duty?? What maf you using? Obviously something is holding it back. 550cc are small but they should max around 350whp, on pump. A OEM maf wont let you boost high.

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Post by robertduhon » Sun Apr 14, 2013 7:41 am

Crap. I forgot to put that. I have a z32 maf. Not sure if it's n/a or twin turbo. It came from enjuku.
I don't exactly know the duty cycle. They did everything but I plan on looking at the tune today. I had to drive 3 hours to get home after 8:30pm, hit traffic, and ended up home at 1am. I didn't even think to look at the information.

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Post by robertduhon » Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:43 am

I apologize. I'm a noob but i'm learning. This is what i found on the duty cycle. If i'm reading this right, there is a bunch of room left. IIRC, I remember them saying it was leaning out on the top end and they couldn't getting it to enrich. I could be wrong on that though. I really need to get them to email me the issues so i can post it here.

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Post by robertduhon » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:30 pm

Here is my dyno results they gave me. From what i understand, the tune on the car made 272 but this is what they sent so i'm not sure what my car makes at this time. Either way, this is what my car did. It looks terrible compared to other graphs. I wouldn't mind peoples opinion, whether it's good or bad.
[center]Image[/center]

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Post by schmauster920 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:57 pm

Boost leaks or a crappy job tuning timing maybe?
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Post by robertduhon » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:19 pm

schmauster920 wrote:Boost leaks or a crappy job tuning timing maybe?
I boost leak tested at 25 psi. I didn't find any with soap and water. It leaked down around 1 psi per second, which i was told was good. I might do another leak test tomorrow to see if one popped up.
The tuning was done by corr performance in kenner, louisiana. They aren't really familiar with nistune but they are really great tuners so i don't want to say it's a bad tune but i'm sure it needs lots of work to get it right. I'm trying not to go bashing before i give them another chance since there is room for improvement.

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Post by RosadoRacing » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:36 pm

Looks like your hitting full boost at 4500 which is not right for the turbo you are using. you should be hitting full boost at 3500. Timing seems to be the issue try going to another tuner I know it sucks dishing out another $400+ but you should easily be making 400whp I still think you should go wit bigger injectors and max the turbo out!

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Post by SoulGuardian » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:58 am

4500rpm is kinda high... i have about the same turbo t3/t04 with .63a/r also. 57 trim tho and im hitting full bost at 3500tr. are you sure your wastegare is not leaking ?

also, you prolly dont have enought timing. i had 305whp àt 13 psi.

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Post by emo_tactical9 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:10 am

schmauster920 wrote:Boost leaks or a crappy job tuning timing maybe?
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Post by R34SR » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:34 pm

you can be the greatest mechanic in the world, but then it really sucks when you have to depend on a tuner to do the part that matters just as much.....my advice is always try get the car running well in its stock form if possible , preferably broken in without a turbo....add one thing at a time, injectors, maf, then turbo lastly...tuning as you go....i did this, and learned so much while doing it.....i would recommend you back track and do the same.....and btw a KA that is off a tooth on the timing chain will behave and drive fine , but show low compression numbers across the board and will result in power loss. i recommend you check your timing and compression numbers. ( thinks are eve more complicated for you because you jumped straight to kelford cams , which will alter compression numbers )
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG

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Post by R34SR » Thu Apr 18, 2013 4:37 pm

now that i think about it, take those kelfords out, put your stock cams back, adjust timing properly...check compression...once that checks out....im confident it will fix your issue.....put the cams in later after you get a good dyno on stock cams ( dont you want to see what improvement the cams provide over stock anyway?) .....this is my advice and what i would do if i was in your position.
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG

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Post by robertduhon » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:28 pm

RosadoRacing wrote:Looks like your hitting full boost at 4500 which is not right for the turbo you are using. you should be hitting full boost at 3500. Timing seems to be the issue try going to another tuner I know it sucks dishing out another $400+ but you should easily be making 400whp I still think you should go wit bigger injectors and max the turbo out!
I'm trying to save money so new/bigger injectors right now are out of the question. However, I plan on getting bigger ones in the future. Right now, I just want to be able to go play around with it, learn about the setup and improve on my driving before I push for the 400s.
SoulGuardian wrote:4500rpm is kinda high... i have about the same turbo t3/t04 with .63a/r also. 57 trim tho and im hitting full bost at 3500tr. are you sure your wastegare is not leaking ?

also, you prolly dont have enought timing. i had 305whp àt 13 psi.
I'm not 100% sure on the wastegate. It's new and on a 12lb spring with a manual boost controller set for 16psi. That's sucks knowing my set up is similar to yours with this issue. What kind of differential do you have and would that make a difference on how the motor makes power? It's a silly question but a friend said it could. I don't see exactly how it would affect it so much but I could be wrong.
R34SR wrote:you can be the greatest mechanic in the world, but then it really sucks when you have to depend on a tuner to do the part that matters just as much.....my advice is always try get the car running well in its stock form if possible , preferably broken in without a turbo....add one thing at a time, injectors, maf, then turbo lastly...tuning as you go....i did this, and learned so much while doing it.....i would recommend you back track and do the same.....and btw a KA that is off a tooth on the timing chain will behave and drive fine , but show low compression numbers across the board and will result in power loss. i recommend you check your timing and compression numbers. ( thinks are eve more complicated for you because you jumped straight to kelford cams , which will alter compression numbers )
When I had the motor out, I set the timing exactly to stock. I would like to see about going back to stock cams but I already started tuning so if I switch back, I have to drive another 3 hours to retune with the smaller cams. I guess I jumped ahead of my self in pushing the turbo issue. It runs and drives great, just the graph looked a bit chopped up. Do you think leaving the setup alone but giving the tuner more time to get things right would fix the timing issues? Seeing as they are already deep into this setup, I'd hate to start over again. I understand where you're coming from and I can't thank you enough for your advice. I will email them and see also what they think about your advice. If they agree, I will bite the bullet but I'd rather try and make this work.

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Post by RosadoRacing » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:19 pm

Leave the kelford cams I don't know why there saying go with stock cams not bashing anyone but the stock cams suck. You have a decent power band if it was for lower boost meaning the power doesn't fall off. About the diff no it doesn't affect power it only affects rpm x mph.

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Post by robertduhon » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:53 pm

RosadoRacing wrote:Leave the kelford cams I don't know why there saying go with stock cams not bashing anyone but the stock cams suck. You have a decent power band if it was for lower boost meaning the power doesn't fall off. About the diff no it doesn't affect power it only affects rpm x mph.
I know the graph doesn't show it and being this is my first boosted car, when the power comes, who cares about low end! This thing flys!! I had a 02 camaro ss with a 75 shot and this 40 would have come close to, if not out ran, that old car. I just hate that it's so jumpy on the graph. I know if corr had time to work out the bugs, they could pull more power and it smooth out. I should have had the car ready for them but I didn't fully.

I agree with R34SR that I should have started out stock and worked up. My next build, I will use that advice but I do feel I'm so far along with this one, I'd rather keep pushing forward. Thanks for the advice.

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Post by RosadoRacing » Fri Apr 19, 2013 6:53 am

From 4700 to 5700 there's a big issue. do you have a wideband? If that graph is correct its rich before 6500rpm which causes power loss and lag.

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Post by robertduhon » Fri Apr 19, 2013 8:12 am

RosadoRacing wrote:From 4700 to 5700 there's a big issue. do you have a wideband? If that graph is correct its rich before 6500rpm which causes power loss and lag.
They had issues getting things to work out right on it. I think the major cause was i had the stock 240 sx filter in and not the 300zx filter. They couldn't get the fuel rich on the top end and it was running a little lean. I think they may have changed a setting which cause the issues in the middle to feed the top. I'm going off of memory here and I had been awake since 6am that day and the tune was finished at 8:30pm and I drove home. They emailed me a tune a few days ago to see if the top end would enrich with the new filter I installed. They want to see if it changes. If it does, a few more hours retuning might solve tons of problems.

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Post by RosadoRacing » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:02 am

If they had such a issue with the fuel being lean why is it 10.6 afr down low which kills the spool??

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Post by robertduhon » Fri Apr 19, 2013 9:15 am

RosadoRacing wrote:If they had such a issue with the fuel being lean why is it 10.6 afr down low which kills the spool??
That is what i was trying to figure out. Everything I'm saying is what they told me. I might not know much about tuning but i can compare other tunes to mine and i noticed differences which brought up these questions. If it leaned out on the top, why make it rich in the beginning? I don't know if they tried to change the setup so it would read richer on the top end so they could get more power but caused it to be over rich on the low to mid. If that's the case, that would cause my choking on the bottom and mid but full power on the top end. If that's case, i would go back and it would be like starting all over again wouldn't it?

This is some of the conversation from them and me:
I was reading some forums on the matter and the S14 ecu behaves a little different that the others i have tuned in the past for Nistune and they suggested moving some values in a table that I had not messed with much at the time of the tune. I would like for you to take this map load it and burn the ROM and when u get to operating temp to make a 4th gear wot run and datalog the run. If you can not datalog the run at least look look at the AFR gauge you have and let me know what are the values as you get to redline on the run. I am hoping the numbers drop from mid 12s to high 11.

Let me know what happens and also here are the charts from the the day at the dyno.

Alberto


On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 1:39 PM, Robert Duhon <robert_duhon@hotmail.com> wrote:

Everything you said make sense. As with learning something new, i have to ask the questions in order to understand. In the way you put it, just because the fuel pressure is there, doesn't mean the flow is there. I think i might try the data log run with the each 20 with stock fuel filter. Then, I want to put a high volume fuel filter with the same settings and see if that may be the culprit.

I don't want you to think that my questions about things are undermining your knowledge and skill as a tuner. I'm really just trying to fix my brain around the information on the tuning side and the operation side of the car. The more i learn, the more i can fix problems in the future so you guys don't have to. I see how frustrating it is to tune something that's not right.

Again, thanks for being patient with me.
Rob

From: corrperformance@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 15 Apr 2013 11:36:20 -0500
Subject: Re: FW: 240sx
To: robert_duhon@hotmail.com


I am not sure what is going on with your duty cycle, but what I do know if that at 16psi look at your AFR on your gauge and they are gong to be in 12-12.5 range. In order to go up to more power/psi you need to have this number in the 11.5 to 11.8 range. Next look at the fuel map on the nistune and on the upper right hand you are going to see some rather larger numbers there then the rest of the map. Go there and add 20 more points, burn the ROM make a run datalog and watch your AFR gauge as you get to redline, if those numbers on the AFR gauge do not drop from 12s to 11 range then there is something wrong with the fuel delivery and no matter what the Nistune tells u on the DC% it does not matter since the right amt. of fuel needed to support 17-20 psi is not there.

Also you are enamored by the numbers and what is this that it should make 350 @ 85%DC yes in a perfect world with all the variables correct at the same time. Also 350hp does not mean nothing to me since i do not know if they are referring to flywheel hp or wheel hp and if wheel hp on what dyno since they all read differently. So here we are, wanting to hit a certain number.

Remember that every motor is different so no matter if stock or not, does not mean that they all going to hit that magic # you are seeking.

As for the charts let me get them to you tonight or possibly on Tuesday when I return to the shop.


From: Robert Duhon [mailto:robert_duhon@hotmail.com]
Sent: Monday, April 15, 2013 12:14 AM
To: acorrea@corrperformance.com
Subject: RE: 240sx



I idled several times after i left the shop, Redlights, to turn, traffic, etc, but it only did that when i pulled in the drive way just before shutting it off. Turning the car completely off and starting it right back up and it idled fine. I changed the oil and it was dark, which is to be expected. Took the wife for a run and it idled fine. It only did it that once. So i don't know.

The duty cycle i'm talking about is what shows on the nistune map. The attachment is what i was looking at. It shows the injectors at around 60%, that's why i was wondering why y'all said it was leaning out on the top end. The injectors were brand new when i installed them. I will keep an eye on the plugs. I will learn how to do data logs and send you some info.

When you can, can you send all the information y'all have on the runs. My friend wants to look at them to see if he can help me find all the bugs and issues so i can get ready for a revisit. I keep reading how those injectors, with a adjustable pressure regulator, should make 350 at 85% duty. They have stock ka motors pushing the t3/t4 to 400, so mine has to have so more to squeeze before we change everything up. At least, that what i keep reading.

From: acorrea@corrperformance.com
To: robert_duhon@hotmail.com
Subject: 240sx
Date: Sun, 14 Apr 2013 11:45:30 -0500

Good to hear that you made it home safe. As for the question regarding the issue on Idle was it idling like this the while time and only cleared up when you turned off the engine? To me there has to be a hang up somewhere in the tune that is causing that, could be temp related or TPS.



So when you say half your duty cycle, was this value that you say half on the duty cycle is when you made a WOT pull? Those injectors were brand new when u installed them right? Meaning I have even seen a single new injector have a issue in flow and cause one cylinder from getting the even amt. of fuel as the others. Check again when you pull all the plugs to see if one looks different then the rest of them.



I don’t have the car to do datalogs and see the DC%, can you do that make a datalog on the street and see what is the percentage on that if it lets you log that parameter.



Alberto





From: Robert Duhon [mailto:robert_duhon@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, April 14, 2013 11:25 AM
To: acorrea@corrperformance.com
Subject:



I forgot to email you when i got home. Me and the car made it here safe and sound. I did a pull around Gonzales and it feels strong to 120mph but traffic started to get bad so i didn't want to push it or get a ticket. That's all i did after that. I babied it home. When i got home and pulled in the driveway, it was idling at 11.6 a/f so i shut the car off and cranked it back up and it was idling normal. I don't get it at all. Figured you might have some insight.

I woke up this morning and started looking at all the info on the tune. I looked at the duty cycle and the injectors are a little over half. I'm trying to learn and understand so bare with me. If the injectors were capable of more and the turbo was capable of more psi, what was my cars issue? I'm trying to research so i can both learn and plan for the future.

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Post by SoulGuardian » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:04 am

robertduhon wrote:
SoulGuardian wrote:4500rpm is kinda high... i have about the same turbo t3/t04 with .63a/r also. 57 trim tho and im hitting full bost at 3500tr. are you sure your wastegare is not leaking ?

also, you prolly dont have enought timing. i had 305whp àt 13 psi.
I'm not 100% sure on the wastegate. It's new and on a 12lb spring with a manual boost controller set for 16psi. That's sucks knowing my set up is similar to yours with this issue. What kind of differential do you have and would that make a difference on how the motor makes power? It's a silly question but a friend said it could. I don't see exactly how it would affect it so much but I could be wrong.
I still use factory ka24de drivetrain (transmission, diff). just with a lightweight flywheel and a cheap clutch. heck that's the main reason I couldnt push more, clutch was starting the show slipping above 13psi. Got my hand on a clutchmaster FX400 that i will install this spring.

AN OTHER consideration is the dyno calibration. maybe the dyno you went on is really offset on the low side. I've seen more dyno offset on the highside. usually. (i know a local shop here that renoun for giving false higher number... aka sti with 450whp when they prolly have more like 350whp)

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Post by robertduhon » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:13 pm

SoulGuardian wrote:
robertduhon wrote:
SoulGuardian wrote:4500rpm is kinda high... i have about the same turbo t3/t04 with .63a/r also. 57 trim tho and im hitting full bost at 3500tr. are you sure your wastegare is not leaking ?

also, you prolly dont have enought timing. i had 305whp àt 13 psi.
I'm not 100% sure on the wastegate. It's new and on a 12lb spring with a manual boost controller set for 16psi. That's sucks knowing my set up is similar to yours with this issue. What kind of differential do you have and would that make a difference on how the motor makes power? It's a silly question but a friend said it could. I don't see exactly how it would affect it so much but I could be wrong.
I still use factory ka24de drivetrain (transmission, diff). just with a lightweight flywheel and a cheap clutch. heck that's the main reason I couldnt push more, clutch was starting the show slipping above 13psi. Got my hand on a clutchmaster FX400 that i will install this spring.

AN OTHER consideration is the dyno calibration. maybe the dyno you went on is really offset on the low side. I've seen more dyno offset on the highside. usually. (i know a local shop here that renoun for giving false higher number... aka sti with 450whp when they prolly have more like 350whp)
I'm using a 3.692 rear diff from a q45 and I have a 300zx n/a trans waiting for installation. I have a 350z stage 2 Jim wolf clutch on a chromoly steel r32 flywheel on the car so it will hold up to 500 ft lb of torque so I can push the injectors and turbo all I want.

I think I'm going to keep the kelford cams because I started with them, might as well finish with them. Their dyno reads low. On a mustang or Dynojet, I would have pulled 300whp easy but I could have much more with some timing done right.

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Post by wheelman » Fri Apr 19, 2013 1:29 pm

I don't see it mentioned anywhere but did you upgrade the fuel pump?
If not that's most likely why it's leaning out at the higher RPMs.

I also have to say those low RPM afr numbers are horrible and there is no reason I know of that it should run richer at low RPM to allow running richer at high RPM. This isn't a carb that requires compromises like that, everything should be adjustable across the entire RPM range.
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Post by robertduhon » Fri Apr 19, 2013 3:01 pm

wheelman wrote:I don't see it mentioned anywhere but did you upgrade the fuel pump?
If not that's most likely why it's leaning out at the higher RPMs.

I also have to say those low RPM afr numbers are horrible and there is no reason I know of that it should run richer at low RPM to allow running richer at high RPM. This isn't a carb that requires compromises like that, everything should be adjustable across the entire RPM range.
Absolutely changed the fuel pump. Sorry, I forgot to post that.

I agree on the afr being crap. I will bring all the info I'm getting from y'all to them so I can get an answer as to why it's so terrible. I'm sure, as most shops would, they will try and correct their mistakes and tune it must better. I'm being patient because they have been patient with me on a few things. When I get some money ready, I'm gong to set up a retune date. This way, after it's all done, they don't have any excuses, and I won't pay if it's not right.

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Post by NateDogg » Fri May 03, 2013 9:22 am

I think your cams are out.

You should be makin way more tq at low rpm. At least 200 at 3000rpm.
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Post by airman » Fri May 03, 2013 11:38 am

RosadoRacing wrote:Leave the kelford cams I don't know why there saying go with stock cams not bashing anyone but the stock cams suck.
It was only suggested to go back to stock cams to eliminate the possibility of cams being the issue (degreed wrong/not at all/what have you).

You said you had the tune emailed to you, think you could open it up and take some screenshots of the fuel and timing tables?

I will jump in to say that if you have Nistune, you should really look into learning the tuning basics yourself. It will save you a LOT of money. I realize you don't have your own dyno, but you can still tune for fuel with your wideband and timing can be done on the street with a knock light.

Crossing my fingers you get this figured out. However judging by the whacky rich AFR down low, I'm going to blame the tuner for a lot of the problems. There's a good chance your plugs could be fouled too.
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Post by sdaigle240 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:47 am

hope i didnt skim over it but id like to see the timing table. just looking between 4700 and 7k you can see the missing timing in the shape of the curve..... IF the mechanical timing is correct.
airman wrote:I'm all about spreadsheets. Bitches love spreadsheets.
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hy35 18psi Build Thread: viewtopic.php?t=38784
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neverlift
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Post by neverlift » Mon May 20, 2013 10:39 am

huffman made 223 on 8psi from a z31 turbo, very conservative timing wise and very rich. I used the simple 1degree per psi timing retard, street tuned.
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NateDogg
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Post by NateDogg » Mon May 20, 2013 12:39 pm

When you ask someone to tune a car on pump gas they are going to be conservative. There isn't much margin for error on pump.

Depending on octane, I would add at least a couple degrees from 4000+ to get a more linear powerband but overall it's not bad considering the low reading dyno.

Best way to judge power is to take it to the track and see what MPH you get in the 1/4.
'91 S13
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Berserker
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Post by Berserker » Mon May 20, 2013 5:08 pm

Just to throw it out there on my 50 trim I made 379 whp on dyno dynamic on 17-18 psi.
608 whp @ 27.25 psi powered by Precision6262
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Marcus
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Post by Marcus » Mon May 20, 2013 7:46 pm

I'm still on board with the boost leak or other issue. It's not right. Personally I can't comprehend the spool and tune issues with my personally experiences. I've had a cracked manifold and spooled well before this....with boost leaks to top it. Something is not right..PERIOD.

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