Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

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Johnny240
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Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:46 pm

I would appreciate a bit of help here. I have bought someone else's project s14 with of course a KA24DE. They installed an ms3x and some performance mods to set it up for boost, but lost interest when they couldn't figure out how to tune it. Tunerstudio does not seem to be the most userfriendly.

I have gotten into it myself, but I am also running into issues. The wiring seems to be all correct and the engine cranks but will not start. It has a DIYautotune trigger wheel installed, and while cranking, the software shows that it is synced.

As far as mods go, it has:
910CC injectors
272 Brian Crower cams
Ported head
Eagle rods
Weisco Pistons
90mm throttle body
apr studs

It is currently running a N/A setup; I wanted to get it running before boosting it.

Here are the logs for a couple crank attempts.
Logs.zip
(10.89 KiB) Downloaded 8 times
What do you guys think could be the issue?

D21turbo
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:03 pm

Logs are worthless without the MSQ file. Go into TunerStudio and save your tune, then go look in the Documents\TunerStudioProjects\yourprojectname and get the MSQ file. Post it.

Have you already registered on the SUPPORT FORUM at https://www.msextra.com/? Do you have all the MS3 MANUALS? Have you read them?

Did you get wiring diagrams from previous owner/installer? How did you confirm wiring 'seems' correct?

Before you even start cranking, you should use TEST mode to verify everything is wired correctly. Are you going full sequential COP? Injection? You can test that coils/injectors are working correctly without even cranking the engine. Start with the basics in section 2.11 through 2.14 of the Setting Up manual. Verify all your calibrations and the Basic settings are set correctly. Then test injectors, coils and other outputs. Do not attempt to start the engine until you know for sure all sensors work, coils and injectors fire, and basic settings are good.

I have MS2 with DIY trigger wheel running full sequential on my SOHC. There are a few tricks, but it is not hard. Biggest issue I had was figuring out which wire from the distributor was crank signal and which was cam signal. Once I figured that out, I just used the TunerStudio settings recommended on DIY website and set the timing angle. When setting timing angle, I had all plugs removed from engine. Then connected one plug to coil A and grounded it to the block. Attached inductive timing light, crank the engine while strobing, and line up the timing mark. On my KA24E I set the base timing at exactly 10 BTDC. Once I had everything set correctly, my engine fired almost immediately.

edited to clarify
- Greg

Boosted90Hardbody
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Boosted90Hardbody » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:01 am

I'm not seeing any spark advance or a timing table in the logs, do you have an ignition advance table set up? Also, double check under 'Ignition' > 'decoder wheel settings' and make sure its not set to fixed timing at 0 deg advance. Thats my best guess until you post an MSQ file.

NukeKS14
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:05 pm

I'd start from the beginning and verify the actual install, then verify timing alignment. Good advice from D21turbo and I'll echo that, plus this;

http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/mspnp ... ?isModel=1

That article is for the MS2 but everything about Verifying and adjusting base timing, as well as the Trigger wheel setup should apply (except for the jumpers) Verify all of that is set up correctly. You got into someone else's project and don't know exactly what's been done. Best to start from the beginning, test the physical setup and wiring with test mode, then verify timing. Also, what base tune are you using? where is the MS3x from? is it a homebuilt unit? Had it ever run on that ECU? Once you post the .msq file we can comb through it to help a bit there, as everyone else has said before. Also, please let us know what firmware you're running. here's a screenshot on where to find that in tunerstudio. With your project opened, look on the top bar of Tunerstudio;

Image

When I first installed my MS2, I drove the car in to the garage for the install but then couldn't get it to fire with the Megasquirt. It turned out my distributor was a tooth off. The stock computer was able to compensate but, Megasquirt is not so tolerant. I found out by performing the verification step for the base timing, having my wife crank the engine while I watched the crank pulley with a timing light. A paint marker to mark off the right spot on the crank pulley helps out here too. I ended up re-stabbing my distributor correctly and adjusting the trigger angle, and adjusting the distributor to get it zeroed in.

-----------------------------Rant ahead, tune out, it's not relevant to your issue per se-------------------

Get used to reading through the user's manual for Megasquirt and asking for help. The best explanation I've heard about Megasquirt is that it's built by engineers for engineers. It is plenty capable though... if you put the time into learning it. My main exception is that the manual and Tunerstudio do not explain weighting\units very consistently. The counter to that, is there is excellent support from the devs and creator. I do Instrumentation and control for a living and the PIDs are one of my BIGGEST points of contention. The Prop value and Integral values specifically; There are two ways to control Proportional band; either through Gain or Prop band. SURPRISE! Prop band is the inverse of gain. so... does a larger value here raise gain or increase prop band? They have an ENTIRELY opposite effect. Also with Integral in a PID controller; is it minutes/repeat or repeats/minute? A larger value will have the opposite effect for each of those. Unless you're close, you've got no idea if you're helping or hurting by changing that number. Other than that, I'm totally cool with MS/Tunerstudio. Once you do some experimenting and searching, the dollar/performance value is immense for these ECUs. In that regard, I'm definitely a built-not-bought owner so I don't mind the mental-sweat equity here.

D21turbo
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:36 pm

One more suggestion, check this link for some base tunes - http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/mspnp2_maps.php

Do not load any of these tunes and try to use them on your setup. But you can use these to cut and paste the VE table and Timing table as a starting point to help get your engine started. You still need to make sure all your other settings are correct for your car, and test that all sensors inputs and fuel/ignition outputs are working before you try to start the engine. As Nuke said, do not count on the previous owner setting everything up correctly. They were obviously in over their heads and failed to get MS working. MS is a very good engine management system and will run your engine just fine if you put in the effort to double check that every wire and every setting is correct. And once you get all the kinks worked out and get it running, the tuning ability you have with TunerStudio rivals any other aftermarket ECU available.
- Greg

Johnny240
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:34 pm

Before I start, I am just now reading the thread, and I will take all of your advice into account. Everything in this reply has been done before I read this.

I am rather new and have been doing research for the past couple of days. I have a decent understanding of tunerstudio now.

Going over the car, the previous owner installed a diyautotune wiring harness. His wiring for the most part is pretty good and organized. He also did a coil conversion.

The car during past start attempts was synced and was detonating some gas but was not starting. This lead me to think the issue was timing, so I went ahead and made sure my distributor rotor was pointing at cyl 1 while it was at TDC; it was previously 180 out. I then unplugged my coils and updated my firmware on the MS3 because it was one version 1.0 and I was hoping to find my Autometer 5779 Bosch LSU 4.2 wideband in the list of calibration presets. My AFR gauge has been locked at 10.1 or 10.2; presently, I still have not been able to calibrate it. After updating, I combed through the settings to make sure everything was roughly the same as before. Tunerstudio not longer says synced when cranking. Somewhere along the way I plugged my coils back in.

My spark situation is very weird. It might be the reason the car won't start. I was changing some spark settings, post update, and since I forgot to unplug my coils and I genied my cyl 1 coil (destroyed it). The cyl 1 coil was the only one that was hot during this time. I then bought some spark plug wires and plugged them into the distributor cap, hoping that I could just bypass the conversion. I test the wires and notice that I am not getting spark. I then test the connector that plugs directly into the side of the dizzy and find that only the first (far left) column of connections are putting out any sort of signal. All of the connections to the right of that column have no hot or ground signals. Can someone let me know if this is normal? I checked the ground that this was going to and it is good. It is the same one that the injectors are grounded to and they work.

Also, I do not know what setting the IAVC should be set to. It is the stock one and it is set to on/off currently.

Overall:
I have my mechanical timing set as close as I can get it to 0 degrees. My timing light does not work when I put it on this car.
I do not seem to be getting any spark.
I cannot for the life of me find the rough values my wideband should read at 0V and 5V at 1000ft above sea level, bosch motorsports has not responded. I also would like to AVOID taking out that sensor to test it.
The engine grounds are good.
My fuses are good.
I am getting fuel and compression.
Tests while cranking are being does with a jump pack connected.

EDIT: The injectors are actually 893CC (85lb/hr)
Last edited by Johnny240 on Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Johnny240
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Sun Jul 12, 2020 11:34 pm

Here is my current tune file.
Attachments
CurrentTune.zip
(26.07 KiB) Downloaded 9 times

Johnny240
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Mon Jul 13, 2020 12:09 am

NukeKS14 wrote:
Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:05 pm
I'd start from the beginning and verify the actual install, then verify timing alignment. Good advice from D21turbo and I'll echo that, plus this;

http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/mspnp ... ?isModel=1

That article is for the MS2 but everything about Verifying and adjusting base timing, as well as the Trigger wheel setup should apply (except for the jumpers) Verify all of that is set up correctly. You got into someone else's project and don't know exactly what's been done. Best to start from the beginning, test the physical setup and wiring with test mode, then verify timing. Also, what base tune are you using? where is the MS3x from? is it a homebuilt unit? Had it ever run on that ECU? Once you post the .msq file we can comb through it to help a bit there, as everyone else has said before. Also, please let us know what firmware you're running. here's a screenshot on where to find that in tunerstudio. With your project opened, look on the top bar of Tunerstudio;

Image

When I first installed my MS2, I drove the car in to the garage for the install but then couldn't get it to fire with the Megasquirt. It turned out my distributor was a tooth off. The stock computer was able to compensate but, Megasquirt is not so tolerant. I found out by performing the verification step for the base timing, having my wife crank the engine while I watched the crank pulley with a timing light. A paint marker to mark off the right spot on the crank pulley helps out here too. I ended up re-stabbing my distributor correctly and adjusting the trigger angle, and adjusting the distributor to get it zeroed in.

-----------------------------Rant ahead, tune out, it's not relevant to your issue per se-------------------

Get used to reading through the user's manual for Megasquirt and asking for help. The best explanation I've heard about Megasquirt is that it's built by engineers for engineers. It is plenty capable though... if you put the time into learning it. My main exception is that the manual and Tunerstudio do not explain weighting\units very consistently. The counter to that, is there is excellent support from the devs and creator. I do Instrumentation and control for a living and the PIDs are one of my BIGGEST points of contention. The Prop value and Integral values specifically; There are two ways to control Proportional band; either through Gain or Prop band. SURPRISE! Prop band is the inverse of gain. so... does a larger value here raise gain or increase prop band? They have an ENTIRELY opposite effect. Also with Integral in a PID controller; is it minutes/repeat or repeats/minute? A larger value will have the opposite effect for each of those. Unless you're close, you've got no idea if you're helping or hurting by changing that number. Other than that, I'm totally cool with MS/Tunerstudio. Once you do some experimenting and searching, the dollar/performance value is immense for these ECUs. In that regard, I'm definitely a built-not-bought owner so I don't mind the mental-sweat equity here.
I am running firmware 1.5.1. I am assuming the unit is home built. It has never run on this ECU.

D21turbo
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:23 pm

1.5.1 is correct version for MS3X.

Your Basic/Load Settings look okay. But in General Setting you may want to change Incorporate AFR Target from 'don't include' to 'include'. This will make your VE table more meaningful.

In Ignition Settings tab under Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder I see one error. The Number of Coils is set to 'Wasted spark'. This is incorrect. If you have 4 separate coils and want full sequential, this should be set to 'Coil on plug'. In this same menu is Tooth #1 Angle. You have this set to 345. This number will need to be adjusted up or down to align your timing mark. This is a critical setting, and you must be able to crank the engine with your timing light pointed at the lower pulley and timing pointer.

The way I set mine is
1. I rotated distributor fully counterclockwise and tightened it down.
2. Pull all spark plugs.
3. Attach plug wire and spark plug to coil A. Ground it to the block or head.
4. Attach timing light to plug wire. If it is a dial back light, make sure to zero it. Best to use a non-dial back light if you have one.
5. In TunerStudio, set Fixed Advance to 'Fixed Timing' and then set Timing for Fixed Advance to 10.0.
5. Have someone crank engine over while you check the timing mark. You want to adjust Tooth #1 Angle until the timing pointer lines up exactly with 10 degree mark on the balancer pulley.

On my engine, I ended up with 162.5 degrees for Tooth #1 Angle. When done, change Fixed Advance back to Use Table.

Not sure if I can help you on the dizzy question. If DOHC uses same dizzy as SOHC, there should be four wires coming out of the side cable. Signals are GND, +12V SW, opto-crank, opto-cam. Wire colors may vary. I can look tomorrow and see what the colors are on my D21. If opto crank and cam wires are swapped, it won't work.

Also DIY has two different sizes of shutter wheels. If you have the wrong one, it won't work. I found this out the hard way. I bought the 50mm wheel because they list KA24DE engine. Turns out I needed the 54mm wheel for my KA24E engine.

When you get your new coil, I suggest you check the coils actually work with Testmode. In TunerStudio in upper right corner go to CAN bus/Testmode menu. Select Output Test Mode Inj/Spk. Set up the coil test for One coil, and start with Coil A. Make sure it fires. Again, plugs out of the engine, you want to see it firing. Then check B, C and D. Make sure you follow the firing order when you install plugs and wires; A-B-C-D to 1-3-4-2.

I also see in your tune you have Nominal Dwell set to 2mS and Spark Duration 5.0mS. Where did those numbers come from? What ignition coils are you using? You need to confirm the settings you have are correct for your coil. This might be why you fragged it.

I have LS2 truck coils, GM D585. I have Nominal Dwell set to 3.7mS (DIY recommends 3.5mS) and Spark Duration is 1.0mS.
- Greg

NukeKS14
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:39 am

D21 has some good starting points with the tune file. Yeah, you need to test each coil in test mode to make sure they're even wired up correctly. it's POSSIBLE the PO set it up in wasted spark (basically 1 wire will trigger cyl 1 and 4, the other 3 and 2) but that isn't likely if he's bought the harness from DIYPNP and I believe it has provisions for full sequential spark. The tune file helps but I have some more questions as well.

FIRST, when you pulled your dizzy and restabbed it 180 off, are you sure it was TDC on the compression stroke? 4 cyl engines have two Top Dead Cylinder events per cycle. If you got your dizzy 180 off and have it set for TDC on the exhaust stroke, that's going to mess everything up timing-wise. Just asking obvious questions out of the gate. If you were at TDC and it was pointing at the #4 plug, either 1 the previous owner REALLY had it 180 off or 2, you JUST moved it 180 off because you were actually on the exhaust stroke.

1) Have you put your ECU in test mode and actually tested the coils are sparking yet? I'm with D21, we need to know what ACTUAL coil packs you have on the car. That matters HUGELY for the ignition settings and may be why you burned a coil up.

Image

Test them ONE AT A TIME like D21 said to make sure you're getting spark from the commanded coil only. If you're getting spark from multiple coils (1/4, 3/2) using that setting, you are wired up for wasted spark.

2) What ACTUAL injectors do you have installed? Brand, etc... What base fuel pressure are you running? These things are VERY important to the settings as well. You don't have deadtime set for the injectors or non-linear table. While this will not keep the engine from running, it will keep it from running well and make it a nightmare to tune. If you reply back with this info I'll try to help you find the values for this stuff.

3)Have you pulled the fuel rail off and tested the injectors in test mode? With the fuel rail removed, using the same screen as injectors, and some rags to catch the fuel, you'll want to test each injector too. This is the only way to make sure they're wired up correctly.

4)The S14 KA have an integrated ignition coil in the distributor. Unsure again on what's going on with your wiring harness, but when converting to coil-on-plug, that has to be disconnected or you won't get any spark.
Image

That's a picture of what I'm talking about. make sure that 2-wire plug on your dizzy is disconnected. As for the wiring, I'm not quite sure what you're asking. The larger plug there is what goes to the CAS. Grab an FSM for your car and look in the EC section for wiring. You can check out what is the ground, signal, and power wire at that plug to confirm you're seeing what you should in terms of voltages if you're unsure of the PO's install.

4) Here's a >link< to the owner's manual for the wideband you claim to have. Bosch are going to have no clue how your manufacturer set up things to use their sensor so they can't help you. The output comes from the controller which is the Autometer unit. I'm not sure about this wideband but I'd highly recommend going with a reputable brand like AEM, innovate, or whatever if you're going to use it to tune your VE table down the road. just my $.02....

Image

So it's not even 0-5V. Autometer says their unit outputs 0-4v, with values of 0.000 = 10.0 and 4.000 = 17.0
You'll have to verify/possibly adjust this once you get the car running to true it up but that's a different topic for a different time.

Image
That's where you'll need to plug those values in

5)Go ahead and set your EGO control to 0 for now. It's only "correcting" above 1300 RPM per setting but... since your wb isn't even reading right and, yeah, i'll leave it up to you if you trust it enough to tune from I'd just turn it off completely (Also your AFR table is not good. more on that later)
Image

That's where to go to do that.

6) Your VE table.... I don't know you have enough fuel to keep the car running once you get your spark issue dealt with. I overlaid the DIYPNP default VE table over your grid and here's what I get. This was fine to get my car started up on and tuned from there. I'd start here IMHO.

Image

blue means it added fuel and red means it took it away. the fuel around idle area is almost 2x as rich as you had it before.

7) What in the wide world of sports is up with your AFR and ignition tables? Did you adjust those? previous owner? They're not going to keep the car from starting up and idling but... Your ignition table is scaled to like 45psi of boost. :character-beavisbutthead: (You're losing a TON of resolution in cruise here. Not to mention it's really advanced at idle. This is going to make it difficult to idle smoothly. There's an entire thread on ignition tables for megasquirt in the basic forum.) The AFR table isn't going to be doing diddly with the EGO control set to 0 but might want to fix it for the long term, especially once you have a good reliable wideband set up there and want to go tune in your VE table.

8.) Cranking pulse should look something more like this;
Image


I think we're all assuming you're on pump gas here. That's true, right? How old is the gas in the tank btw? came with the car? how full?



Here's a link to the MS3X user manual if you don't already have it. I'd sit down and get comfortable with that thing over the long haul.

Johnny240
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm

D21turbo wrote:
Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:23 pm
1.5.1 is correct version for MS3X.

Your Basic/Load Settings look okay. But in General Setting you may want to change Incorporate AFR Target from 'don't include' to 'include'. This will make your VE table more meaningful.

In Ignition Settings tab under Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder I see one error. The Number of Coils is set to 'Wasted spark'. This is incorrect. If you have 4 separate coils and want full sequential, this should be set to 'Coil on plug'. In this same menu is Tooth #1 Angle. You have this set to 345. This number will need to be adjusted up or down to align your timing mark. This is a critical setting, and you must be able to crank the engine with your timing light pointed at the lower pulley and timing pointer.

The way I set mine is
1. I rotated distributor fully counterclockwise and tightened it down.
2. Pull all spark plugs.
3. Attach plug wire and spark plug to coil A. Ground it to the block or head.
4. Attach timing light to plug wire. If it is a dial back light, make sure to zero it. Best to use a non-dial back light if you have one.
5. In TunerStudio, set Fixed Advance to 'Fixed Timing' and then set Timing for Fixed Advance to 10.0.
5. Have someone crank engine over while you check the timing mark. You want to adjust Tooth #1 Angle until the timing pointer lines up exactly with 10 degree mark on the balancer pulley.

On my engine, I ended up with 162.5 degrees for Tooth #1 Angle. When done, change Fixed Advance back to Use Table.

Not sure if I can help you on the dizzy question. If DOHC uses same dizzy as SOHC, there should be four wires coming out of the side cable. Signals are GND, +12V SW, opto-crank, opto-cam. Wire colors may vary. I can look tomorrow and see what the colors are on my D21. If opto crank and cam wires are swapped, it won't work.

Also DIY has two different sizes of shutter wheels. If you have the wrong one, it won't work. I found this out the hard way. I bought the 50mm wheel because they list KA24DE engine. Turns out I needed the 54mm wheel for my KA24E engine.

When you get your new coil, I suggest you check the coils actually work with Testmode. In TunerStudio in upper right corner go to CAN bus/Testmode menu. Select Output Test Mode Inj/Spk. Set up the coil test for One coil, and start with Coil A. Make sure it fires. Again, plugs out of the engine, you want to see it firing. Then check B, C and D. Make sure you follow the firing order when you install plugs and wires; A-B-C-D to 1-3-4-2.

I also see in your tune you have Nominal Dwell set to 2mS and Spark Duration 5.0mS. Where did those numbers come from? What ignition coils are you using? You need to confirm the settings you have are correct for your coil. This might be why you fragged it.

I have LS2 truck coils, GM D585. I have Nominal Dwell set to 3.7mS (DIY recommends 3.5mS) and Spark Duration is 1.0mS.
I am reluctant to buy a new coil. Right now I have them disconnected and have spark plug wires connected. Those dwell and spark duration settings came from another thread on this forum. The coils I had connected before were Aem 30-2850. I can also confirm the trigger wheel I am using is 50mm and is correct for my engine; it is installed in the correct orientation too.

I have never done a coil conversion. After doing one, is it possible to just plug the spark plug wires back in instead? Or is some other modification needed?

NukeKS14
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:58 pm

Johnny240 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm

I have never done a coil conversion. After doing one, is it possible to just plug the spark plug wires back in instead? Or is some other modification needed?
Settings will need to be changed

D21turbo
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:48 pm

Johnny240 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:35 pm
I have never done a coil conversion. After doing one, is it possible to just plug the spark plug wires back in instead? Or is some other modification needed?
If you mean plugging the wires back into the distributor, absolutely not. As Nuke says, it requires setting changes. But it also requires wiring changes. It is a one or the other kind of thing. Trust me, you want to work out what ever bugs you have and make full sequential work. Going back to the distributor is like taking a time machine back to the 90's. Don't do it! Full sequential with individual coils provides many advantages and is well worth the effort to get it set up properly.
- Greg

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:50 am

NukeKS14 wrote:
Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:39 am
FIRST, when you pulled your dizzy and restabbed it 180 off, are you sure it was TDC on the compression stroke? 4 cyl engines have two Top Dead Cylinder events per cycle. If you got your dizzy 180 off and have it set for TDC on the exhaust stroke, that's going to mess everything up timing-wise. Just asking obvious questions out of the gate. If you were at TDC and it was pointing at the #4 plug, either 1 the previous owner REALLY had it 180 off or 2, you JUST moved it 180 off because you were actually on the exhaust stroke.
Nope, distributor phasing doesn't matter one bit if he's not using it to fire the plugs. Only thing in the distributor he is using is the trigger wheel. All he needs to do is find tooth #1 angle, then Megasquirt takes care of sending spark to the correct cylinder. If he ever removes the distributor, it (as in the trigger wheel and the optical sensor in the distributor housing) has to go back in at the exact same position. If not, he'll need to adjust tooth #1 angle again.

This is why I rotated my distributor fully counterclockwise when determining tooth angle, so I can easily set it back to base timing if I ever need to remove it.
- Greg

NukeKS14
Dreams of owning a 240!
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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:15 pm

D21turbo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:50 am
Nope, distributor phasing doesn't matter one bit if he's not using it to fire the plugs. Only thing in the distributor he is using is the trigger wheel. All he needs to do is find tooth #1 angle, then Megasquirt takes care of sending spark to the correct cylinder. If he ever removes the distributor, it (as in the trigger wheel and the optical sensor in the distributor housing) has to go back in at the exact same position. If not, he'll need to adjust tooth #1 angle again.

This is why I rotated my distributor fully counterclockwise when determining tooth angle, so I can easily set it back to base timing if I ever need to remove it.
I agree with you technically, but disagree on principle. Case in point, the OP is trying to go back to the OEM distributor setup rather than fix the COP setup. You understand how it works and that's fine, but, what happens when OP gets frustrated down the road and tries to go to a used harness and OEM ECU or something different? Yeah he's still going to have to set his trigger angle in tunerstudio and get it right for timing either way currently, but he's starting from a point closer to where the FSM is going to direct. I should have explained better before, but I generally advocate for people to try to work from a point as close to 'original' as possible when they aren't experienced or versed enough to figure things out for themselves. He'll be on a different forum somewhere with different symptoms talking to different people down the road and having his distributor stabbed wrong when he doesn't know it could be an issue. I don't mean to crap the thread up with argument, I just wanted to explain why I think he should check his distributor. He'll be able to get it timed regardless, but, if he makes any other drastic changes, well at least he's working from a closer-to-normal foundation. It's all speculative but I try to stick to Murphy's law when I can.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 pm

NukeKS14 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:15 pm
D21turbo wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:50 am
Nope, distributor phasing doesn't matter one bit if he's not using it to fire the plugs. Only thing in the distributor he is using is the trigger wheel. All he needs to do is find tooth #1 angle, then Megasquirt takes care of sending spark to the correct cylinder. If he ever removes the distributor, it (as in the trigger wheel and the optical sensor in the distributor housing) has to go back in at the exact same position. If not, he'll need to adjust tooth #1 angle again.

This is why I rotated my distributor fully counterclockwise when determining tooth angle, so I can easily set it back to base timing if I ever need to remove it.
I agree with you technically, but disagree on principle. Case in point, the OP is trying to go back to the OEM distributor setup rather than fix the COP setup. You understand how it works and that's fine, but, what happens when OP gets frustrated down the road and tries to go to a used harness and OEM ECU or something different? Yeah he's still going to have to set his trigger angle in tunerstudio and get it right for timing either way currently, but he's starting from a point closer to where the FSM is going to direct. I should have explained better before, but I generally advocate for people to try to work from a point as close to 'original' as possible when they aren't experienced or versed enough to figure things out for themselves. He'll be on a different forum somewhere with different symptoms talking to different people down the road and having his distributor stabbed wrong when he doesn't know it could be an issue. I don't mean to crap the thread up with argument, I just wanted to explain why I think he should check his distributor. He'll be able to get it timed regardless, but, if he makes any other drastic changes, well at least he's working from a closer-to-normal foundation. It's all speculative but I try to stick to Murphy's law when I can.
I stabbed the dizzy at compression tdc. I just need to find the tooth angle when I have time. I also need to order a replacement coil.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:50 pm

Johnny240 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 pm

I stabbed the dizzy at compression tdc. I just need to find the tooth angle when I have time. I also need to order a replacement coil.
Good deal. Any replies for the other questions in my prior post? Injectors, etc...?

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:05 pm

NukeKS14 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:50 pm
Johnny240 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:53 pm

I stabbed the dizzy at compression tdc. I just need to find the tooth angle when I have time. I also need to order a replacement coil.
Good deal. Any replies for the other questions in my prior post? Injectors, etc...?
Im running 80lb/hr deka injectors with an obx racing fuel rail. My coils were Aem 30-2850. The injectors all work; I have not tested the coils because I am missing on right now. The maps are all from a base map that I downloaded a while back. I cannot recall exactly where from but it was supposed to be for this car and I was working from there. The setup for the coils is definitely for sequential spark. As for the cam and crank signals in that plug, I would assume that they are in the correct orientation as I has them synced at one point before; that really changed after updating the firmware from 1.0. Here is a picture of that plug just in case --though I doubt it would have any use. I will have to get back to you on fuel pressure, but it was at about 40psi after the car sat for a day.
Attachments
72EC150A-F76D-44B5-B4D8-E3ACC2BA60BC.jpeg

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 3:07 pm

I didnt realize how blurry that picture was. The wire colors from left to right are black red green white. I have yet to actually test their individual signals.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:48 pm

Can't find the manual for the 30-2850, they were superceded by 2854 which are >Here<

Image

So the setting in MS is uncorrected before voltage adjustment, I'd set it for the 14v value of 2.4ms
As far as spark duration goes, 5.0 seems a bit high. I'd lower it to 2.0 and go from there, see how warm the coil packs are getting. Dwell is the important value here.

Image

I'd also lower cranking dwell to 2.7 or something closer to 2.4

Image

Here's where to correct your dwell vs battery voltage as a function of % of the 14.0V value (2.4ms) so, since it plateaus at 4.1ms from 8-6 V, all those values will be 171% (4.1/2.4), 14.0 is going to be 100% and so forth.

Fuel injectors;

I can't calculate your injector deadtime or PWM table without fuel pressure. Here are some places I get that info from. I can tell you, for example, 850cc injectors are ONLY 850cc injectors at a specific voltage at a specific fuel pressure. You may need/want to change the value in your basic load settings accordingly.

For example, I'm running ID1050x injectors at 50psi base fuel pressure. Megasquirt bases deadtime on 13.2V so, with that all factored in, I'm ACTUALLY squirting 1142.1 cc/min out of my 1050 cc/min injectors.

Here are some places I found info for your Siemens/DEKA 80 lb/hr injectors;

https://www.ms4x.net/index.php?title=Fu ... _80lb.2Fhr
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 94&t=36303
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 31&t=41357

so at 43.5psi base pressure, if you do a linear calculation between the 12.0 and 14.0v values provided, I get 0.887ms deadtime. HOWEVER, people are getting a lot of different results, some people running .750ms some tested at .4ms

here's a link to a deadtime calculator but you'd need the datasheets for the injectors to input the bases
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =302838282


Aaand then I came up with this post from Matt Cramer himself. Great. :x

https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 01&t=69952

Image
image upload

Short answer... I have no clue what to do for your deadtime.


Separate but related sidenote, I went to a Radium fuel rail when I upgraded my injectors to the ID units. I was having a lean spike around 4k RPM in my fuel table. Really struggled to figure out what was causing it and it ended up being a resonant pulse in my fuel rail. I installed a Radium fuel pulse dampener and it completely went away. Not relevant to your starting issue but something to think about later if you run into something similar.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm

NukeKS14 wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 5:48 pm
Can't find the manual for the 30-2850, they were superceded by 2854 which are >Here<

Image

So the setting in MS is uncorrected before voltage adjustment, I'd set it for the 14v value of 2.4ms
As far as spark duration goes, 5.0 seems a bit high. I'd lower it to 2.0 and go from there, see how warm the coil packs are getting. Dwell is the important value here.

Image

I'd also lower cranking dwell to 2.7 or something closer to 2.4

Image

Here's where to correct your dwell vs battery voltage as a function of % of the 14.0V value (2.4ms) so, since it plateaus at 4.1ms from 8-6 V, all those values will be 171% (4.1/2.4), 14.0 is going to be 100% and so forth.

Fuel injectors;

I can't calculate your injector deadtime or PWM table without fuel pressure. Here are some places I get that info from. I can tell you, for example, 850cc injectors are ONLY 850cc injectors at a specific voltage at a specific fuel pressure. You may need/want to change the value in your basic load settings accordingly.

For example, I'm running ID1050x injectors at 50psi base fuel pressure. Megasquirt bases deadtime on 13.2V so, with that all factored in, I'm ACTUALLY squirting 1142.1 cc/min out of my 1050 cc/min injectors.

Here are some places I found info for your Siemens/DEKA 80 lb/hr injectors;

https://www.ms4x.net/index.php?title=Fu ... _80lb.2Fhr
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 94&t=36303
https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 31&t=41357

so at 43.5psi base pressure, if you do a linear calculation between the 12.0 and 14.0v values provided, I get 0.887ms deadtime. HOWEVER, people are getting a lot of different results, some people running .750ms some tested at .4ms

here's a link to a deadtime calculator but you'd need the datasheets for the injectors to input the bases
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... =302838282


Aaand then I came up with this post from Matt Cramer himself. Great. :x

https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 01&t=69952

Image
image upload

Short answer... I have no clue what to do for your deadtime.


Separate but related sidenote, I went to a Radium fuel rail when I upgraded my injectors to the ID units. I was having a lean spike around 4k RPM in my fuel table. Really struggled to figure out what was causing it and it ended up being a resonant pulse in my fuel rail. I installed a Radium fuel pulse dampener and it completely went away. Not relevant to your starting issue but something to think about later if you run into something similar.
I cannot use those voltage values for these coils. Although they are the next gen of that coil, they are not direct replacements. Also, I am trying to adjust all of my incorrect values right now for my ignition settings; I have one of the other 3 coils plugged in to cyl 1 and it keeps getting hot. Any idea why that might be? I have my cranking dwell set to 2.7 and my nominal dwell set to 4.0. The nominal dwell was at 2.0 before.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:02 pm

If all the coils are getting hot in that one spot, and not the others, seems you have a wiring issue.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:28 pm

Does the coil get hot just by being plugged in? If so, it could be the Spark Output setting is wrong in your Ignition Options/Wheel Decoder menu. You currently have it set to 'Going High'. Try changing it to 'Going Low' and see if the coil stays cool.

Some Megasquirt implementations drive the coil directly from the processor. Others use a MOSFET buffer, which inverts the signal. In TunerStudio, the Spark Output setting refers to the signal polarity directly out of the processor. You need to know whether your ECU has an inverter or not. If you have the specs for the coil, it should tell you whether it is triggered on a going high pulse or a going low pulse. Unless you know for sure how your Megasquirt is configured, you should not just copy someone else's setting and assume it is correct. You need to figure out which polarity signal your coil needs and set the ECU accordingly.

Have you fixed the number of coils setting I pointed out earlier? If it is still set to Wasted Spark, that could also be why only one coil is getting hot.
- Greg

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:35 pm

I have tried cop and wasted cop. Going high and going low. The coil is still getting hot. I went back to the settings that I had when they were fine and they are still getting hot. I have changed none of the wiring. It could be possible that when the coil overheated, the components in the plug were also destroyed. The coil was initially destroyed when I changed the spark duration to 0.7.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:52 pm

I am going to order some replacement coils but I need someone to help me out in figuring out as to why the old ones keep overheating-- before I install the new ones.

They are heating up no matter what I do.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:15 pm

Johnny240 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 4:52 pm
I am going to order some replacement coils but I need someone to help me out in figuring out as to why the old ones keep overheating-- before I install the new ones.

They are heating up no matter what I do.
After putting my coils in test mode and selecting coil b only to be tested, I have found that my coil a plug is getting both constant power and ground signals. The rest of the coils are getting constant power but no ground. This would explain why my first coil is the only one getting hot and is not even getting spark at all.

Edit: The fact that I am running these CDI coils with a Diy Quadspark might have some significance aswell.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:06 am

Johnny240 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:15 pm
Edit: The fact that I am running these CDI coils with a Diy Quadspark might have some significance aswell.
Why? Seems over complicated. MS3X should be able to drive 4 logic level coils directly. I'd recommend getting a set of LS coils for a GM truck. The D585 coil with round body and heatsink on the end. Relatively cheap, simple to set up, and a hot spark.
- Greg

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by NukeKS14 » Sun Jul 19, 2020 10:02 am

D21turbo wrote:
Sun Jul 19, 2020 8:06 am
Johnny240 wrote:
Sat Jul 18, 2020 5:15 pm
Edit: The fact that I am running these CDI coils with a Diy Quadspark might have some significance aswell.
Why? Seems over complicated. MS3X should be able to drive 4 logic level coils directly. I'd recommend getting a set of LS coils for a GM truck. The D585 coil with round body and heatsink on the end. Relatively cheap, simple to set up, and a hot spark.
or Maxima plugs if you're going for the COP approach. Still cheap/simple. I'm w/ D21 though, why the extra module?

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/tec ... egasquirt/
DIYAUTOTUNE wrote:QuadSpark on an MS3 with MS3X

Under ignition settings:

Set Spark Output: Going High / Inverted. Setting this wrong will overheat the QuadSpark.

Use standard dwell control and adjust as needed to match the coils you are using. Set the dwell at a very low value to start with (we’ve found Ford EDIS coils have especially short dwell times) and increase it slowly. Back it off if the case becomes hot to the touch.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by Johnny240 » Sat Jul 25, 2020 8:20 pm

I got some 01 maxima coils now and I wired them up. That fixes my spark issue and I now have my base timing correctly. The current issue right now is that I am getting extremely high fuel pressure. 65-70 psi when I want it to be 43. I have a direct mount fuel pressure regulator and when I adjust it, it does nothing. I tried adjusting it when my fuel pump was on and it sounds like my fuel pump is working harder when I reduce the pressure.

Anyone got any ideas as to how I could solve this? I cannot idle the car like this as it is way too much fuel.

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Re: Megasquirt MS3X KA24DE wont start

Post by D21turbo » Sat Jul 25, 2020 9:47 pm

You can command the fuel pump on/off in the injector test mode. There is nothing in MS to control fuel pressure. So either your regulator is whack, you have it connected wrong, or your return line is constricted.
- Greg

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