Hard start mostly fixed, False Triggers, Megasquirt

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Toady225
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Hard start mostly fixed, False Triggers, Megasquirt

Post by Toady225 »

This pertains to anyone who is using MS2 to control timing, and using the stock CAS for tack signal, and is having starting issues.

I have always had an occasional hard start issue. Not knowing exactly what was causing it, I went around in circles changing settings to try to isolate it. Finally I went back to the manual, not realizing that it has been revised a few times since I last read it.

Went digging around in the (revised) Megatune manualfor a solution to this problem, and after reading for a while I finally found something.
Next Pulse Tolerance (%) (PulseTol) is the tolerance during which the next pulse is not allowed to count as a 'true' pulse, and is counted as a false trigger. These allow the code to have some way of knowing that the tach pulses are not arriving in a manner consistent with the configuration. The tolerance is a check on the percentage change in times between tach pulses, or between teeth if using an M-N missing-tooth wheel.

The next pulse tolerances are designed to 'catch' errors and adjust the tach/tooth count (or reset the ignition) when an error occurs. Note that unlike the next pulse tolerances, the time and percentage masking above is designed to prevent false triggering that would create additional tach events that were false.

So if the time between the last two events is X, then if then next pulse occurs within X-PulseTol, it is rejected as a false trigger. If a pulse is NOT received after X+PulseTol, a tooth is assumed to have been missed. This only occurs after the first few pulses (as specified in the Skip Pulses). In later versions of the MS-II code, the next pulse tolerance can be set under three different conditions:

Cranking: This is the next pulse tolerance while cranking (enginebit=3) - it should be set fairly high. This is because the starter motor speed can vary quite a bit, depending on the compression and which cylinders happen to reach firing conditions first, etc.

After-start: This is the next pulse tolerance while afterstart enrichment is active, and it should be lower than the value while cranking.

Normal Running: This is the next pulse tolerance once afterstart enrichment ends, and it should be the lowest of the three (since the engine speed is more stable in normal running conditions - there's more rotational inertia, and fewer variations in things like air/fuel mixtures. As well, if you have a VR sensor, the signal is stronger, etc.)
Basically, I had the tolerances set way too low, and so while cranking and starting, MS was throwing out too many signals, making it really hard to start reliably.

I have had much smoother starting with the following settings

Cranking % = 95
Afterstart % = 90
Normal Running % = 85

Somehow I misunderstood these settings and had them reversed. I had cranking set to 30, Afterstart set to 20, and running set to 10.

My theory, so far seeming true, is that the stock CAS produces very little noise, compared to a VR wheel or possibly even a Hall sensor, so only a small percent of the signal should be considered noise. Almost anything that comes across the signal should be considered a true trigger event, due to the design of the optical system.
I have not attempted using a 100 % setting yet, but I doubt that it would have adverse effects.

I have not noticed any adverse effects to having these settings set this way on my car So Far, but Please use your best judgement before changing your settings. Hope this helps someone

Happy tuning
My old setup:
- Treadstone Mani, T04B 60-1
- PDM-Racing stage 2 Tri-flo cams
- Supertech valvetrain
- Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons
- AMS fuel rail, 75lb injectors
- MS2Extra standalone
- Everything is for sale!
ImageRIP 2009

My next setup...Kouki w/RB25??Chuki w/KAT??.. S15-13 Sileighty?
zmarquese
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Post by zmarquese »

Good find. Did this get rig of the 500 - 2000 random RPM readings during cranking? My trouble is getting the MS to understand the the engine is cranking. Right when I start cranking it thinks the engine is running and starts warmup/afterstart.
deviousKA
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Post by deviousKA »

Ah, the failures of a timer based cam/crank angle decoding system...

Your problems lie in the way MS deals (or doesnt) with inconsistent cranking rpm and startup reversion.

Most ems that use timer based system have an alternate startup ignition function that will fire the coils on actual (real) trigger events during startup as a workaround for this problem. MS does not.

MS uses a time based system where it will count the time (free running counter/timer) of the CAS inputs to decode the SYNC pulse. During startup the rpm is inconsistent and reversion can also occur which causes the MS to interpret a regular cylinder increment pulse as a SYNC pulse, and consequently firing erroneously.. This happens much too fast for you to interpret via your tuning software, it it something that must be properly engineered by the developer of the ems firmware.

My recommendation is to switch to ignition control that provides a bit more dedicated processing power, perhaps EDIS or even the proposed BG sequencer board. You could also avoid all of this by using the OEM ems which is completely event based and already uses distributed control of ignition and fuel, ECCS.
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Toady225
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Post by Toady225 »

zmarquese wrote:Good find. Did this get rig of the 500 - 2000 random RPM readings during cranking? My trouble is getting the MS to understand the the engine is cranking. Right when I start cranking it thinks the engine is running and starts warmup/afterstart.
Im not sure if it will or not, I have only seen low rpm's while cranking, nothing over about 200 rpm. So if the engine is not actually turning at those rpm's then it sounds like you are seeing false trigger events. I am not a megatune expert but I think there are a few settings you can adjust to solve that issue.
My old setup:
- Treadstone Mani, T04B 60-1
- PDM-Racing stage 2 Tri-flo cams
- Supertech valvetrain
- Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons
- AMS fuel rail, 75lb injectors
- MS2Extra standalone
- Everything is for sale!
ImageRIP 2009

My next setup...Kouki w/RB25??Chuki w/KAT??.. S15-13 Sileighty?
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Toady225
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Post by Toady225 »

deviousKA wrote:Ah, the failures of a timer based cam/crank angle decoding system...

Your problems lie in the way MS deals (or doesnt) with inconsistent cranking rpm and startup reversion.

Most ems that use timer based system have an alternate startup ignition function that will fire the coils on actual (real) trigger events during startup as a workaround for this problem. MS does not.

MS uses a time based system where it will count the time (free running counter/timer) of the CAS inputs to decode the SYNC pulse. During startup the rpm is inconsistent and reversion can also occur which causes the MS to interpret a regular cylinder increment pulse as a SYNC pulse, and consequently firing erroneously.. This happens much too fast for you to interpret via your tuning software, it it something that must be properly engineered by the developer of the ems firmware.

My recommendation is to switch to ignition control that provides a bit more dedicated processing power, perhaps EDIS or even the proposed BG sequencer board. You could also avoid all of this by using the OEM ems which is completely event based and already uses distributed control of ignition and fuel, ECCS.
Actually, the MS2 does have a way to trigger the ignition during cranking by going off of the CAS directly without any prediction algorithm. the problem is with the stock CAS on the 240, namely the orientation of the disk in the dizzy. if the disk were rotatable in the housing, this problem would not exist. The other solution is to replace the disk.
My old setup:
- Treadstone Mani, T04B 60-1
- PDM-Racing stage 2 Tri-flo cams
- Supertech valvetrain
- Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons
- AMS fuel rail, 75lb injectors
- MS2Extra standalone
- Everything is for sale!
ImageRIP 2009

My next setup...Kouki w/RB25??Chuki w/KAT??.. S15-13 Sileighty?
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Post by Matt Cramer »

Actually, the MS2 does have a way to trigger the ignition during cranking by going off of the CAS directly without any prediction algorithm. the problem is with the stock CAS on the 240, namely the orientation of the disk in the dizzy. if the disk were rotatable in the housing, this problem would not exist. The other solution is to replace the disk.
Precisely - there is a "trigger rise" or "trigger return" mode (exactly which one to use depends on whether you have an MS-I or MS-II) that fires the ignition with no prediction, just whenever a certain pulse from the sensor arrives. The trouble is that the trigger slits on a KA distributor are positioned in such a way that you'd advance the timing way too far when cranking if you did that. You'd need a system that can use the 360 degree slots to pull this off with the stock disc and an aftermarket EMS, and I haven't heard of many that do this. I have heard of some MS2 users yanking the shutter disc out of a 4G63 to get more accurate timing though.

It is possible to use this method with a 36-1 or 60-2 crank trigger, too.
Matt at DIYAutoTune.com - Megasquirt ECUs, fuel injectors, wideband O2 sensor systems, and more
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Post by realslow »

Matt Cramer wrote:
Actually, the MS2 does have a way to trigger the ignition during cranking by going off of the CAS directly without any prediction algorithm. the problem is with the stock CAS on the 240, namely the orientation of the disk in the dizzy. if the disk were rotatable in the housing, this problem would not exist. The other solution is to replace the disk.
Precisely - there is a "trigger rise" or "trigger return" mode (exactly which one to use depends on whether you have an MS-I or MS-II) that fires the ignition with no prediction, just whenever a certain pulse from the sensor arrives. The trouble is that the trigger slits on a KA distributor are positioned in such a way that you'd advance the timing way too far when cranking if you did that. You'd need a system that can use the 360 degree slots to pull this off with the stock disc and an aftermarket EMS, and I haven't heard of many that do this. I have heard of some MS2 users yanking the shutter disc out of a 4G63 to get more accurate timing though.

It is possible to use this method with a 36-1 or 60-2 crank trigger, too.
I am a little confused to what you are saying,

You put a CAS on KA and you cant get it to trigger. is basically what i think i am reading
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Post by Matt Cramer »

The mod I'm describing is a bit complicated. Here's what it entails:

1. Disassemble a 1G DSM CAS and pull the shutter wheel out of it.
2. Put the shutter wheel into the KA's distributor.
3. Use MS2/Extra code and the input mods for a DSM combined with a single coil driver output.

This gives a somewhat more accurate signal during cranking.
Matt at DIYAutoTune.com - Megasquirt ECUs, fuel injectors, wideband O2 sensor systems, and more
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Toady225
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Post by Toady225 »

realslow wrote:
Matt Cramer wrote:
Actually, the MS2 does have a way to trigger the ignition during cranking by going off of the CAS directly without any prediction algorithm. the problem is with the stock CAS on the 240, namely the orientation of the disk in the dizzy. if the disk were rotatable in the housing, this problem would not exist. The other solution is to replace the disk.
Precisely - there is a "trigger rise" or "trigger return" mode (exactly which one to use depends on whether you have an MS-I or MS-II) that fires the ignition with no prediction, just whenever a certain pulse from the sensor arrives. The trouble is that the trigger slits on a KA distributor are positioned in such a way that you'd advance the timing way too far when cranking if you did that. You'd need a system that can use the 360 degree slots to pull this off with the stock disc and an aftermarket EMS, and I haven't heard of many that do this. I have heard of some MS2 users yanking the shutter disc out of a 4G63 to get more accurate timing though.

It is possible to use this method with a 36-1 or 60-2 crank trigger, too.
I am a little confused to what you are saying,

You put a CAS on KA and you cant get it to trigger. is basically what i think i am reading
The KA has a CAS stock. This is what we are talking about modifying
My old setup:
- Treadstone Mani, T04B 60-1
- PDM-Racing stage 2 Tri-flo cams
- Supertech valvetrain
- Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons
- AMS fuel rail, 75lb injectors
- MS2Extra standalone
- Everything is for sale!
ImageRIP 2009

My next setup...Kouki w/RB25??Chuki w/KAT??.. S15-13 Sileighty?
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Post by AK-Z »

Anybody running any version of MS on a OBD2 s14? I need to know how to wire/tune the spark/distributor.
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Post by Matt Cramer »

It's not much different, other than that it can be a bit tricky to wire up the stock ignitor and most users have been running an external coil. The only real difference as far as Megasquirt is concerned is the wiring pinout.
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k20z1
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Post by k20z1 »

a question, im gonna be doing my installs soon (engine, turbo, megasquirt, IC, VLSD) and i have found out that i will have no tach because i effing forgot to get that installedon the ms-II when i ordered it, what are some reasonable alternatives to get around/through this dilema, will i need to open the megasquirt up and do surgery to the circuitry or can i just run the dizzy wires to the stock ecu and then run the stock tach that way??? will that even work???
The engine is in...
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Post by Matt Cramer »

k20z1 wrote:a question, im gonna be doing my installs soon (engine, turbo, megasquirt, IC, VLSD) and i have found out that i will have no tach because i effing forgot to get that installedon the ms-II when i ordered it, what are some reasonable alternatives to get around/through this dilema, will i need to open the megasquirt up and do surgery to the circuitry or can i just run the dizzy wires to the stock ecu and then run the stock tach that way??? will that even work???
What year 240 do you have? Many of them don't need a tach driver circuit as they drive the tach off the negative terminal of the coil. Let me know what year it is and I can look up the wiring diagram for it.
Matt at DIYAutoTune.com - Megasquirt ECUs, fuel injectors, wideband O2 sensor systems, and more
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Post by 240shorty »

Actually, the MS2 does have a way to trigger the ignition during cranking by going off of the CAS directly without any prediction algorithm. the problem is with the stock CAS on the 240, namely the orientation of the disk in the dizzy. if the disk were rotatable in the housing, this problem would not exist. The other solution is to replace the disk.
There is a simple solution to that issue, if you dare. You can remove the chopper wheel from the dizzy and grind out the D shape in the center, making it into a circle. This allows infinite adjustment of the trigger offset. My CAS is set up this way to good effect.

Regarding the positioning of the trigger. I put mine around 50* BTDC. That is slightly earlier than the most advanced portions of the timing table. The goal was to get more accurate timing for both running and cranking. If you wanted to, you could rotate the chopper to signal at around 10* BTDC and set the MS ECU to fire off the trigger rise. This would eliminate the erratic timing for cranking. However *I think* this would give you less optimal timing while driving. Anytime the ignition fires prior to 10* BTDC (pretty often) the timing would be interpolated from the last signal, which came nearly 180* prior.

FWIW, I run the MS2 on the KA with 850cc injectors. The car starts pretty quickly and consistently. When I first installed, I did get some funkiness with the engine firing too early causing the starter to lockup. I was able to eliminate this with the ignition timing even prior to this mod. I don't see why any other KA should differ greatly.

A word of warning. If you try this and misplace the chopper wheel, your ignition timing could be way off and grenade your engine. You should test the position with a multimeter and degree wheel prior to running. I also replaced the phillips screw that retains the chopper wheel with a socket cap machine screw. It's a bit easier to tighten and loosen without stripping.

-Steve
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Post by 240shorty »

As an addendum to the above. I've included screenshots of my current ignition timing and setup. Some of the ignition setup stuff is default.

Image

Image

I'd suggest trying to adjust your first couple of RPM and load bins to something like I've got. Then try the timing settings in the lower left part of the map. See if it helps, it probably won't hurt. Don't copy the whole thing though. It's not a professional tune.

I just put a battery in the car, attached a couple fuel hoses and started it for the first time in weeks. It fired and started after 2 or 3 cranks, same as always. Don't throw the MS under the bus just yet. As previously stated, I see no compelling reason why my KA would start any different from any other.

-Steve
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Toady225
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Post by Toady225 »

Just figured I'd follow up with my own settings, just in case anyone wants to compare

Image

I am getting a very snappy, responsive start with these settings, no more starter backlash, 3-4 cranks and she starts right up. 75lb injectors and 272 cams

Image
My old setup:
- Treadstone Mani, T04B 60-1
- PDM-Racing stage 2 Tri-flo cams
- Supertech valvetrain
- Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons
- AMS fuel rail, 75lb injectors
- MS2Extra standalone
- Everything is for sale!
ImageRIP 2009

My next setup...Kouki w/RB25??Chuki w/KAT??.. S15-13 Sileighty?
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Post by 240shorty »

Wow. I'm amazed at how much different our maps are in the upper few rows... essentially reversed right to left from one another.

What is the significance of the 'Predictor Algorithm' being set to 'Last Interval', as opposed to the 1st High RPM... setting? Was this a suggested setting or did it produce better results? I didn't understand exactly what this setting did, so it was left default.

-Steve
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Toady225
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Post by Toady225 »

I completely missed your post,

From what I can tell the last interval setting seems to work better for my setup. I have not tried switching it around in a while though.
My old setup:
- Treadstone Mani, T04B 60-1
- PDM-Racing stage 2 Tri-flo cams
- Supertech valvetrain
- Eagle rods, Wiseco pistons
- AMS fuel rail, 75lb injectors
- MS2Extra standalone
- Everything is for sale!
ImageRIP 2009

My next setup...Kouki w/RB25??Chuki w/KAT??.. S15-13 Sileighty?
Jason M
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Post by Jason M »

I have a 4g63 4/2 CAS swap, using MSII extra. It was a huge improvement over the 4 slot low res signal from the OE CAS, but is still not quite enough resolution. once in a while it will still kick back on start up.

I hope to make up some trigger discs to resolve the issue. I think 24 slits and a camshaft reset slit 24+ 1 wheel would be perfect. That would give us an update every 30 crankshaft degrees. I believe we could set up a trigger return scheme and have perfect factory like starts everytime.
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Post by Jason M »

http://www.triggerdisc.com/

I just found these 24 +1 tooth trigger discs for $75 a peice.

If you can get a serial number for an AEM EMS for a Nissan, or Mitsubishi that uses an optical CAS they will send you a trigger disc for free!
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Post by deviousKA »

Are you trying to rip-off AEM or what?

You could convert the nissan CAS disk to a 24+1 for a lot cheaper than $75. Less accuracy than OEM but whatever.

Use a microcontroller with a 15 count compare match synced with the falling edge of the 90deg (inner slot) signal.

megasquirt is dead, long live diy-efi!
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Post by Jason M »

I'am not trying to rip off AEM. I tried to purchase the disc from AEM, but they will not sell them to anybody. They told me to just come up with a serial number and they'll send them out for free.

A translator for the OE CAS would be nice, but I'am not capable of designing one.

I think a drop in replacement wheel would be the easiest, and cheapest route.

What do you mean megasquirt is dead?
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Post by Matt Cramer »

Jason M wrote:What do you mean megasquirt is dead?
I think that was a reference to a guy who got upset at Bowling & Grippo and decided to design his own version of a build it yourself ECU. It's still in the "pre-alpha" stages right now, to use his own description of it.
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Post by Spoolin6er »

Sorry to bring this back from the dead but...

There was talk in here of being able to use trigger return with a 24-1 wheel.

Now that DIY-AT offers one (I have it installed), can I use it with MS1 for trigger return cranking?

BTW, either I installed mine backwards, or the settings for the obdII dizzy's are pretty different from whats listed on diy's how-to. They list

trig A: 10
trig B: 4
angle: 75deg

I'm finding that TDC occurs at about tooth 11, so to keep a reasonable trigger angle I'm using:

trig A: 8
trig B: 2
angle: 73deg

It seems to be working ok now, but I still am not seeing how 30deg of resolution could be enough for trig return cranking...
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Post by Matt Cramer »

Yes, it can work for trigger return cranking on MS1 - you may have to adjust the distributor angle a bit to make sure one of the holes is at 0 to 20 degrees BTDC.
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Post by Spoolin6er »

is there a good way to do this? Its kinda hard to tell what tooth is lined up because of the size of the optical sensor.

thanks
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Post by Matt Cramer »

Spoolin6er wrote:is there a good way to do this? Its kinda hard to tell what tooth is lined up because of the size of the optical sensor.

thanks
The teeth move in 30 degree increments. With a 73 degree trigger angle, two teeth away from the trigger tooth would be 13 degrees. Should be close enough.
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Post by Spoolin6er »

good call - i wasn't thinking. I'll give it a shot and see what happens.

Right now I'm having this weird phenomena where i can crank and crank (4-5 secs) and get no rpm signal (or some times the rpm in MT will pop up to 100ish and just hold) so it wont give any spark. Then right as I let off the key it will hit once or twice, which is sometimes enough to start it. Doesn't happen every time though.

Anyone experience that?
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Post by schmauster920 »

Spoolin6er

Could your ecu or something important be tapped into a source that turns off when the key is turned? AKA ecu power being tapped into the radio or cig lighter maybe.


Im slowly buying my way into the megasquirt family too :D
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Post by Spoolin6er »

Good thought, but I tied into the stock ecu power supply. Also, I still show MS is connected, its just not showing any rpm. (Or in the occasional case, holding one rpm that is incorrect.)
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