Dyno tuning (3 pulls, how much should i bump the timing?)

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Dyno tuning (3 pulls, how much should i bump the timing?)

Post by sdaigle240 »

Looking for suggestions comments etc from members who perform their own dyno tuning. not really looking to hear what youve read, i can read.


ive never so much as been to a dyno. ive street tuned my car, and now obviously want to dyno tune it.

beyond "raising my timing incrementaly and overlaying the graphs to determine the knock threashold" i know nothing. should i be "monitoring" knock? i have "chassis ears" which i would think could be cliped to the block to monitor. ive heard of ppl using stethescopes (really?). i think a knock light is pretty useless, untill the threshold is found and you can "tune" the knock lite to that. I figured id dyno tune and THEN set my knock lite to juuust not flash... so if i ever got greedy for more boost, or i wen i add WMI, i could have a good gauge as to knock.

am also a bit concerned about IATs as i have no way to monitor them. i keep hearing "oh our fans are great, your cooler wont soak" long term id love to put the stock IAT sensor in my cold pipe and figure out the location on the xdf/bin and monitor it.


im not even sure how many pulls i can fit in in an hour. im going to add 2* at a time so i cant see needing much more then 4-5 pulls to determine the threshold and even out and peaks or valleys in the curve.

locally it looks to be 150-200$ per hour. considering most dynos do 3 pulls for 75 with afr/boost and tuning is NOT allowd, i think renting it for an hour is the only way.
i do plan to pre write some bins to save time. and also will have my tuning side kick so i wont be spreading myself to thin, listening for knock and tuning, and checkin the Ic core temps etc etc.


maybe this is a dumb thread, but i know theres members on here who dyno tune their cars as well as others and figured they may have some valuable information to share.
Last edited by sdaigle240 on Thu May 05, 2011 10:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by AceInHole »

Just a note: we noticed power dropping slightly before hitting measurable knock on the AEM EMS as we incremented timing up on the dyno (in 0.5 deg increments). When it came to racing I had to drop timing from where we were on the dyno since our IAT was much higher (even during 10 minute sessions for ProSolo).
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Post by sdaigle240 »

i did not in a million years expect you to even be browsing ka-t.org anymore, let alone posting. i figured i would jump 2* to start. im at 10* WOT on 16 psi, im hoping/assuming theres a good 3-4* to be had. perhaps after the first 2* jump ill go with 1* increments or just all together go 1* (cant do .5* on my ecu) i would think ill have plenty of time/pulls to go 1* at a time. i really need to get some sort of IAT monitoring. did you just take a guess as to how much timing to pull for the increased IATs or is there any sort of rule of themb for temps vs timing?

also pj, if you have any successes youd like to share for pushing the stock block, which i know youve done, please add!
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thanks PJ!
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Post by emo_tactical9 »

I was planning on doing the same thing with the IAT. EcuTalk can monitor/log it. It has a very high sample rate, too.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

do you know the location? id like to do it this way for logging, but at ~40$ for a gauge/sensor, thats another non logging option.
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Post by emo_tactical9 »

You mean location as in the ecu ?
I believe you just need to check it in the options.
If you can't find the software, I can email It to you.
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Post by AceInHole »

sdaigle240 wrote:i did not in a million years expect you to even be browsing ka-t.org anymore, let alone posting.
I browse every now and then.
i figured i would jump 2* to start. im at 10* WOT on 16 psi, im hoping/assuming theres a good 3-4* to be had. perhaps after the first 2* jump ill go with 1* increments or just all together go 1* (cant do .5* on my ecu) i would think ill have plenty of time/pulls to go 1* at a time. i really need to get some sort of IAT monitoring.
On the dyno my IAT temps were pretty consistent. It'd be a good idea to know what they are so that you can trim them in once you get an idea of how much they fluctuate in use. Mine were averaging 100 on the dyno, averaging 140 at the Finger Lakes Tour.


did you just take a guess as to how much timing to pull for the increased IATs or is there any sort of rule of themb for temps vs timing?
I haven't been trimming much on the IAT scale yet since I didn't want to fight the temp correction while tuning in the actual map. I figure I've got enough data logged that I can eventually start scaling back my timing map and compensate for it with IAT timing trim.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

Aem ems ftw, iat timing trim!?!?! That sounds like an awsome feature. Def don't have that on my Calum ecu. Thanks for the feedback!
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Post by AceInHole »

sdaigle240 wrote:Aem ems ftw, iat timing trim!?!?! That sounds like an awsome feature.
Yup. I can trim fuel and timing with respect to air intake temp, and I can also trim fuel by EGT, which I haven't set up yet (and probably won't need to for autocross).

Def don't have that on my Calum ecu. Thanks for the feedback!
Without an IAT trim, I'd definitely err on the conservative side with timing and fuel (pretty much what I'm doing until I get my base map dialed in). If you're still running a draw-through MAF then the higher boost pressures at higher intake temps post-turbo will draw less mass air than the same boost pressures at lower intake temps. It might lead the ECU to inject less fuel and pull less timing in terms of manifold pressure (since mass air flow for lower density air would be less per pressure).
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Post by sdaigle240 »

Yes Adam, I was referencing the ecu location. I'll have to dl that software.


Pj, I have full consult capabilities so I should be able to spot any fuel or timing issues, I hope. I see what your saying though. I'd prefer not to go blow through and map is not an option. Blowthrough would definitely capture a more accurate mass air flow in regards to iat variation, it's worth a serious consideration on my part. Like always, I won't change my setup until there's some quantative value justifying it. I'm going to be setting up an iat sensor/gauge to monitor/log with. If it varies an extreme amount, I'll have to take corrective action beyond just running a conservative tune. Potentially blow through, ic ducting, a non eBay core etc etc.


If anyone has figured out iat trim on a Calum or nistune ecu, please speak up. I'm thinking it's not possible.


Edit: I'm correct right? Blowthrough would expose the sensor to the iats, so more heat passing the sensor would result in a lesser voltage output. As it would require less voltage to maintain the hot wire temp
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Post by Kfred »

Yes. if your mafs is on the hot pipe you kind of have a built in iat based timing correction. More heat is less tp and therefore less timing.

Iat correction is very important on speed density setups.
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Post by AceInHole »

The MAF location doesn't really matter in this case. My comment was in regard to mass airflow changing in respect to manifold pressure with changing air temps. For a constant boost pressure, air temps rise, mass airflow drops. As a result the MAF reads lower and you may end up with less fuel and more timing, which is not necessarily what you want on a high strung motor like a boosted stock KA.
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Post by ThreeTrees »

I signed up today because this is great tuning discussion. I rock a CA but you KA peeps know what you're doing.
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Post by OnTheChip »

sdaigle240 wrote:If anyone has figured out iat trim on a Calum or nistune ecu, please speak up. I'm thinking it's not possible.
What ECU are you using?

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Post by sdaigle240 »

Dave Ive been meaning to contact you.....i indirectly know you through my friend Toby in PA. ive seen some of your awsome work (tunercode), as well as read your informative posts as of late on this forum.

im running a Calum ECU V1, but its a 95 ecu, so im a bit on my own with alot of the tuning. im willing to buy the nistune software if need be.

im an engineer, but i must admit im a bit rusty on all this hex etc related stuff. Im really eager to turn off O2 feeback, as you were nice enough to explain it in another thread. for (now) obvious reasons... no matter what, my car says stoich in 4th and 5th gear on the highway at very light throttle, the problem is the car will make 4-6 psi if im not carefull. im hoping turning off the feedback with aleviate this problem thats had me a bit nervous for a while now.

regarding the IATs, a trim would be awesome, I suspect my street tune @ 75* ambient temps had a helping hand in the cracking of my ringlands (all stock) @ 100+* ambient temps while autox'ing.


perhaps this should have been a PM?
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Post by sdaigle240 »

Kfred wrote:Yes. if your mafs is on the hot pipe you kind of have a built in iat based timing correction. More heat is less tp and therefore less timing.
i was thinking about this yesterday.....

more heat = less MAF voltage = less TP...right? SO...that would yeild higher timing not lower..... obviously as my load increases, my timing decreases. something doesnt sound right.
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Post by OnTheChip »

sdaigle240 wrote:Dave Ive been meaning to contact you.....i indirectly know you through my friend Toby in PA. ive seen some of your awsome work (tunercode), as well as read your informative posts as of late on this forum.

im running a Calum ECU V1, but its a 95 ecu, so im a bit on my own with alot of the tuning. im willing to buy the nistune software if need be.

im an engineer, but i must admit im a bit rusty on all this hex etc related stuff. Im really eager to turn off O2 feeback, as you were nice enough to explain it in another thread. for (now) obvious reasons... no matter what, my car says stoich in 4th and 5th gear on the highway at very light throttle, the problem is the car will make 4-6 psi if im not carefull. im hoping turning off the feedback with aleviate this problem thats had me a bit nervous for a while now.

regarding the IATs, a trim would be awesome, I suspect my street tune @ 75* ambient temps had a helping hand in the cracking of my ringlands (all stock) @ 100+* ambient temps while autox'ing.


perhaps this should have been a PM?
What is the ECU part number? 23710-70F00?

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Post by Kfred »

sdaigle240 wrote:
Kfred wrote:Yes. if your mafs is on the hot pipe you kind of have a built in iat based timing correction. More heat is less tp and therefore less timing.
i was thinking about this yesterday.....

more heat = less MAF voltage = less TP...right? SO...that would yeild higher timing not lower..... obviously as my load increases, my timing decreases. something doesnt sound right.
Woops. Yes you are correct, i must have been drinking that day.

Your timing is increasing but your load is also decreasing because you have a smaller mass of air entering your engine at a given manifold pressure.

Iat based timing correction would be better. You can't just say that you should increase timing as iats increase or vice versa. It is more dynamic than that.
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Post by NateDogg »

Kfred wrote:
sdaigle240 wrote:
Kfred wrote:Yes. if your mafs is on the hot pipe you kind of have a built in iat based timing correction. More heat is less tp and therefore less timing.
i was thinking about this yesterday.....

more heat = less MAF voltage = less TP...right? SO...that would yeild higher timing not lower..... obviously as my load increases, my timing decreases. something doesnt sound right.
Woops. Yes you are correct, i must have been drinking that day.

Your timing is increasing but your load is also decreasing because you have a smaller mass of air entering your engine at a given manifold pressure.

Iat based timing correction would be better. You can't just say that you should increase timing as iats increase or vice versa. It is more dynamic than that.
When I'm tuning my car with Z32 MAF and nisdata, I notice that the resolution for about 400whp allows me to only adjust timing/fuel for 2psi increments. In other words, each load column represents 1-2psi of boost. You have to be careful here because there isn't enough resolution to define between 100F IAT and 140F IAT (or the quivalent of 1-2psi of boost). This is where the AEM shines...

Just be conservative when adding timing. Look for your torque curve peaking and that will be your indicator.

Good luck!
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Post by sdaigle240 »

So if my car lives a next friday drift event, its getting 3 dyno pulls on saturday. (i am lining up a full hour session but this is cheap and just for fun)

anyone with the balls to make some timing suggestions?
im running 15* on 12-13psi and 12* on 16psi. my plan i think, is to do 3 pulls at 16psi. a baseline, then bump it 2*, then another 2*. i dunno it kinda sounds like alot....ending at 16* for 16psi? (of course ill bump it back if the gains differ) i figure in order to spot the trend i have to bump it the same about both pulls....? should i only bump it 1* at a time? nistune guide says 2* is good starting from a conservative tune like mine. (obviously the real problem here is i only have 3 pulls and dont see a point doing 3 pulls at the same timing)
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Post by Kfred »

How are you looking at the timing pointer when setting your base timing?

This is why I don't like suggesting timing settings over the internet. Where you stand and how you look at the pointer when you are setting the base timing makes a difference of up to 4-5*.

It is obvious to me that you are suppose to line up the pointer and the center of the crank bolt in a straight line to accurately set the timing. This is pretty difficult on our cars, but doable. Did the engineers at nissan take into account that the person with the timing light will most likely be standing in front of the engine, and set up the pointer correspondingly? It doesn't say where to stand in the fsm, could be either way.

All i can tell you is that 12-18* is in the ball park of where you need to be, depending on how your base timing was set. I envy the mitsubishi guys with there very accurate knock counting ecus.
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Post by klattr1 »

here's how I do it...if you're starting conservative, try only 2 deg timing advance adjustment at first...and then from there try out 1 deg increments. There are many factors that come into play and also 3 runs is nowhere near enough to maximize the MBT at every RPM breakpoint anyway...would take at least 1-2 hrs time on the dyno to do it properly and overlay runs on top of eachother and measure gains/losses all throughout the powerband.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

always such good info outta u brotha.

the way i did it was try to hold the gun pointing tangentally from the tic mark...which i would think is the "best way"...but totally see what your saying. in fact i hadnt reset it in years and was actually 4* retarded, likely from previously doing it perpindicular to the ground.

12-18* is just what i wanted to hear! my friend (ACE IN HOLE on here) said hes at 15-16 on 18psi but hes dyno tuned in .5* increments and lower compression. so the range u just suggested is exactlly what i was hoping to hear for 16psi.

if i may ask another....

for longevity i will only be running 16psi on cool nights and what not. normally ill be at 13, but of course want to do the pulls on 16. is it "safe" to say if i do this session on 16psi and just interporlate what 13 would be,(maybe add buffer), then im good? prob not necessary but example... if i end with 16* on 16psi can i safely say 18* is good for 13psi? (maybe 17 for comfort)

klattr1 wrote:here's how I do it...if you're starting conservative, try only 2 deg timing advance adjustment at first...and then from there try out 1 deg increments. There are many factors that come into play and also 3 runs is nowhere near enough to maximize the MBT at every RPM breakpoint anyway...would take at least 1-2 hrs time on the dyno to do it properly and overlay runs on top of eachother and measure gains/losses all throughout the powerband.
thanks ryan! i am currently price shoping for dyno time, and will definitely be spending an hour plus doing this right. untill i can do this, im pretty much setting my timing safe for peak tq and running that to redline. definitely will be maximizing the rest of the band when i go to do this right.
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Post by 8-bit »

sdaigle240 wrote:Aem ems ftw, iat timing trim!?!?! That sounds like an awsome feature. Def don't have that on my Calum ecu. Thanks for the feedback!
You do have ignition retarding based on coolant temps. So if when under long duration performance your coolant has an increased temp, you could have that part of the table be a number greater than zero... IAT is much better obviously, and if you have a very good cooling system this feature may be useless, haha.

Either way, it is worth looking into.

Enjoy your dyno run! For me I would prefer tuning over pretty much any 'tuner' because from my experience many other tuners are not familiar with KAT and what general assumptions we ka-t tuners know to be safe or unsafe. I'm also surprised at how pretty much every dyno place I call (with their tuners) doesn't actually have any knock detection equipment!!!

IMHO if you tune pumpgas, you'd better have knock detection.
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Post by Kfred »

Don't run your peak torque timing all the way out to redline. Put ~2* advance at your redline rpm for now, until you get back on the dyno for your fine tune.

The flame front burn rate is more or less constant throughout the rpm range. You want the peak combustion pressure to occur at some x-degrees atdc. If the piston speed is increasing and the burn rate is ~constant, then you need to increase timing to maintain the peak combustion pressure at x-degrees atdc. If your ve was independent of rpm, your timing would need to increase linearly with rpms.

More rpm = more timing
less VE = more timing

Above your peak VE point you have more rpms and less VE. Your motor will want more timing at redline than at peak torque. I run 3-4* more timing at 7k than i do at 5k.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

ahh good thought cody. this far in all situations my altima fans are keeping my coolant below 187 at all times, so i think that rules it out for me. thank you it should def be fun. itsmore about hanging out with fellow 240 guys and grillin and chillin, but some dyno curves will teach me about my street tuning undoubtedly.
Kfred wrote:Don't run your peak torque timing all the way out to redline. Put ~2* advance at your redline rpm for now, until you get back on the dyno for your fine tune.

The flame front burn rate is more or less constant throughout the rpm range. You want the peak combustion pressure to occur at some x-degrees atdc. If the piston speed is increasing and the burn rate is ~constant, then you need to increase timing to maintain the peak combustion pressure at x-degrees atdc. If your ve was independent of rpm, your timing would need to increase linearly with rpms.

More rpm = more timing
less VE = more timing

Above your peak VE point you have more rpms and less VE. Your motor will want more timing at redline than at peak torque. I run 3-4* more timing at 7k than i do at 5k.
HEY now your throwing me off....long ago i had my map bumped 2* above 5500ish and you said, best to leave timing to redline till i got to a dyno :P THANK YOU for throwing the engineering angle explination in, that always works for my brain. so do u think thats cool, bumping it 2* from about 5400 till 7k? and then adjust once i have some quality dyno time.

EDIT I RETRACT THAT, you stated it well right here about an oooold map of mine
Kfred wrote:In your last tp column the timing increases 4* over peak torque at redline, and in multiple others it increases by 3*. This could actually cause a 5-6* increase in timing at redline because TP falls off. I would increase the timing a max of 2* at redline until you get on a dyno.

The stock timing map is very retarded and safe. It has to account for people running 87oct with carbon build up, etc. Emo_Tactical9 runs ~31* on his n/a car up top, and has been for a while iirc. People (including myself for 2years) have run 8psi on stock compression with 18* base timing and no ignition control. That puts you at around 22* at peak torque and back up to 24* up top. I put my car on the dyno and 18* base timing with the stock map came out to be MBT with my setup. Less timing yielded large hp drops and more timing resulted in marginal gains.

I beat the **** out of my car at 8psi with 2* retarded timing and it never blew up. Good times lol. Ran a 13.6 @ 102mph with the fmu and ebay turbo. 93oct btw.
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Post by Kfred »

sdaigle240 wrote: HEY now your throwing me off....long ago i had my map bumped 2* above 5500ish and you said, best to leave timing to redline till i got to a dyno :P THANK YOU for throwing the engineering angle explination in, that always works for my brain. so do u think thats cool, bumping it 2* from about 5400 till 7k? and then adjust once i have some quality dyno time.
My knowledge and experience is always evolving, what can i say... :wink:

I would add 1* every 1000rpms above peak torque. That should be plenty safe.

The ecu will automatically add timing due to the VE decreasing as you pass peak torque, because the tp mimics the torque curve. However, it still makes since that in each load column the timing should increase as the rpms increase.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

awesome, thanks man, your always a great help, and u make it so easy to agree with your explanations.
airman wrote:I'm all about spreadsheets. Bitches love spreadsheets.
schmauster920 wrote:I shall cast my own pistons in the sands of time, then forge them in the depths of hell.. as funds allow
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RIP MJL best friend of 20 years and the man who showed me 240s
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