Virtual Dyno vs Dyno Tune vs .75*:1psi

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dj_smooth
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Virtual Dyno vs Dyno Tune vs .75*:1psi

Post by dj_smooth » Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:17 pm

I am pretty lost here. I have a Gizzmo Knock light. I know you shouldn't trust it as a soul source of knock detection, but it does tend to ping and so for that it gives me some sort of sanity. I have had my car tuned by 2 different tuners. For sake of comparison, I will only show timing maps that have the same K value. The other is using a different K value which makes the load different. My street tune is compared to the dyno tune with the same K value.

My knock light goes crazy with the both dyno tune.
My safe tune feels f-ing sluggish as hell.
The other 2 tunes feel pretty quick, but the knock light just wants ping straight red.

91 octane
Gizzmo Knocklight
TD05 20G
Z32 Maf blow through
550cc
9:1 compression
Nistune

TP
40- 0psi
64- 5psi
72- 10psi
88- 15psi

Street Tune

Following the 25-Xpsi*.75 SLOW AND SLUGGISH

BASE TIMING IS SYNCED WITH NISTUNE.

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Dyno Tune with same K value as street tune

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Just for **** and giggles different dyno tuners comparison on VD

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My safe timing vs dyno tune with the same k value. .75 rule ect....
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Dyno Run with the higher horsepower

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I Am just so lost. I want a safe reliable tune. Both tuners do not have knock detection. They just watch the dyno and listen, then anaylist the charts for knock. Kinda scary now that I know what I know about tuning. I NEED SOME INPUT ON STREET. I am still don't quite understand how a diminish in torque equates to knock ect...

I attempted to make this knock sensor from uprev. All I got was straight noise. I'm sure I did something wrong. I guess I may have to try the knock sensor method in the electronics section of the forum. also for those of you who have made electronic knock sensors and chassis ears ect, where are you guys bolting these things up too? I can bolt To the stock knock sensor location, but it's always a bi*ch to put that thing back on.
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Last edited by dj_smooth on Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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sdaigle240
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Post by sdaigle240 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:26 am

i was actually going to say thats how competent tuners do it. if you are pre detonating it will show in your torque curve. it will go a lil haywire. youll also knotice the tq increases drop off as timing increases as you reach that point of detonation. comparing those 2 "88" coulums you have up to a 4* difference. on the dyno, that could easily translate to anoter 30-40hp/tq. also a half point of fuel can make a fair difference as well, would be nice if your AFRs were on the second graph.

if your hung up on it, look up the stickied knock mic thread on here. thats a brilliant way to listen.
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Post by dj_smooth » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:10 am

Updated with actual dyno graph. I noticed air fuel is closer to the low 11's high 10's for safety.

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Post by arob987 » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:07 pm

What octane gas? How did you calibrate the knock light? Ill give more input once I get home to my computer so I can see the maps a little better and type easier.
New turbo setup build in progress-11mm headstuds/cometic head gasket/jwt cam gears added,prec. 6266,gato mani,prec.46mm wg,bigger fmic,mspnp2,z32 trans,spec twin,q45 rear,full energy bushings. Still need injectors,and a few other small things

Old setup-ka24de-wiseco 9:1 pistons,eagle rods,arp studs,jwt s1 cams,brian crower springs and retainers,jgs log mani,t3 57trim .63 a/r,tomei 740cc,38mm turbonetics evolution wastegate,synapse bov,ebay fmic,nistune,j30 lsd.5 speed swap,z32 brakes F&R.

dj_smooth
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Post by dj_smooth » Fri Jun 21, 2013 3:24 pm

91 octane

To calibrate gizzmo knock light, touch light for 6 seconds and hold engine at around 3200 rpms.
The light will go through 6 flashes. 2 green 2 yellow 2 red and then analyze the frequency and your set to go.

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Post by 8-bit » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:21 am

That's also how cocky and reckless tuners do it, and you end up with a blown motor.

Detonation that destroyed my built motor in 6 hours was inaudible. You could not hear it.
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neverlift
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Post by neverlift » Sat Jun 22, 2013 6:36 pm

I dont even ef around with a ka built or not 1 degree per pound of boost, 11.4:1 or richer depending on boost and octane.

other kiss
keep
it
safe
stupid
:)
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arob987
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Post by arob987 » Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:20 pm

How reputable are your tuners,can you trust there work and ability to judge by the dyno because that is the most used way to determine knock thresholds,the only problem is its a very fine line with the ka so it cant be crossed.unfourtunatly noone here can tell you if the tune is safe since every engine is different. but in my opinion the timing is a little more agressive than what i would be running if it were my car and i was street tuning.the timing at 0 psi and the lower boost ranges looks very agressive me personally I would be wary of that and your on 91 if you were on 93 i could see the 17* of timing at 15 psi ive ran that before with no problems. also cars are more likely to detonate on the streets than they are on the dyno did your tuner take that into consideration?

If it was mine and i was unsure i would back some of the timing off especially around 0psi most id do is about 28* and and id retard the timing a minimum of 0.5* per psi if .75* feels to sluggish and it will be safer than what you currently have if you dont trust the tune you currently have.

If you wanna see if the knock light is picking up false readings then get a few gallons of race gas and run that with the dyno tune if it still goes red id say its false readings as i doubt youd be detonating with the higher octane as it will allow you to run more aggressive timing safely.
New turbo setup build in progress-11mm headstuds/cometic head gasket/jwt cam gears added,prec. 6266,gato mani,prec.46mm wg,bigger fmic,mspnp2,z32 trans,spec twin,q45 rear,full energy bushings. Still need injectors,and a few other small things

Old setup-ka24de-wiseco 9:1 pistons,eagle rods,arp studs,jwt s1 cams,brian crower springs and retainers,jgs log mani,t3 57trim .63 a/r,tomei 740cc,38mm turbonetics evolution wastegate,synapse bov,ebay fmic,nistune,j30 lsd.5 speed swap,z32 brakes F&R.

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Post by wannabethestig » Sun Jun 23, 2013 9:25 am

I bolted my diy knock sensor to the center bottom of the intake manifold which is like an inch directly above the standard location. Sounds amazing. I should lug it up a hill so everyone can hear the ping.
My wife "haven't you spent enough time and money on that car yet?" my answer "no"

The build thread-> viewtopic.php?t=58421&highlight=

neverlift
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Post by neverlift » Sun Jun 23, 2013 10:36 am

wannabethestig wrote:I bolted my diy knock sensor to the center bottom of the intake manifold which is like an inch directly above the standard location. Sounds amazing. I should lug it up a hill so everyone can hear the ping.
do it !!!!!

yeah you cant find the knock threshold for a ka, safely...
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Post by dj_smooth » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:21 pm

I did. My computer is old and slow. I am trying to find a way to amplify the sound with out the computer. I'm looking into ordering this piece next. It's an Fiio E5. Any how here are some pics. I'll upload a vid when I get it working properly. it's glued and insulated with electrical tape all the way around. I just doing have the last part of that pic. Lol

Image
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I believe this is what's needed to allow it to run without a mic input from the computer.

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wannabethestig
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Post by wannabethestig » Sun Jun 23, 2013 5:31 pm

That tape will get gooey with some heat. Heat shrink son electrical tubing on there.
My wife "haven't you spent enough time and money on that car yet?" my answer "no"

The build thread-> viewtopic.php?t=58421&highlight=

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Post by sdaigle240 » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:49 am

8-bit wrote:That's also how cocky and reckless tuners do it, and you end up with a blown motor.

Detonation that destroyed my built motor in 6 hours was inaudible. You could not hear it.
No, thats how tuners do it who spend thouusands of dollars to go to countless seminars hosted by the countries top tuners. so your saying you should use knock detection, but your knock wasnt audiable? if you knocked 2* of timing off you would have seen power gains or minimal change indicating that you were starting to pre detonate. i dunno but I have 6,000 miles on my built motor, probably 10 events, over 20,000 miles KA-t and have seen countless cars roll of off the dyno and been thrashed for years to come. reckless tuning for the win i guess.
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Post by R34SR » Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:55 pm

i did a dyno tune back when i had nistune...only 16* at around 12 psi.....not much at all but for some reason it had knock in it that i could detect with my home brew Det cans ( non amplified old school copper tube and vac hose )......i have those things connected to my car always , coming through the shifter plate....not very clean, but very functional and easy to use......its still my most reliable way of listening for knock in my book....the torque curve on the dyno didnt show it, but like alot of folks say, there are so many other variations when tuning on the street vs dyno....underhood temps and IAT"s alone are always gonna be different when you have your hood open and a giant fan in front of your car while "tuning".
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TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG

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Post by 8-bit » Tue Jun 25, 2013 9:21 pm

R34SR, from what I have heard, the street tuning runs cooler because you have tens of thousands of cubic feet of air flowing past the motor, whereas the fan is actually pretty weak.

But what you also have on the street is variable load. Hills, bumps, fat passengers, corners -- you name it. Things are more 'real' and dynamic, so a tune that was 'safe' in some idealized situation on a dyno could be pushed beyond 'safe' with a few strange road conditions.

Imagine saturating your motor with heat climbing up a mountain to get to teh top where you know there is a nice strip to tune on. And every time you do a pull, you max throttle, then brake hard, let the heat saturate more while you tweak the tune, then do another big pull... The only dyno I went to was actually a giant wind tunnel. The fan was almost the size of the bay! Lol.
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Post by R34SR » Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:12 pm

Interesting, never thought of it like that, however my s14 with a silvia grille seems seriiously starved for fresh air ......cant waitt to do some sort of ducting work.
Anyways next time my car is on the dyno...i will be the one doing the tuning :-)
MEGASQUIRT 2 PNP
MAXIMA COILS
EAGLE-ARP-SUPERTECH 9:1 KA24DE
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CTS V CALIPERS
STANCE LX+ Coilovers
J30 LSD
AME FS01 WHEELS 18X9 +25
FEDERAL 595SS 245/40/18


TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG

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Re:

Post by sdaigle240 » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:07 pm

8-bit wrote:But what you also have on the street is variable load. Hills, bumps, fat passengers, corners -- you name it. Things are more 'real' and dynamic, so a tune that was 'safe' in some idealized situation on a dyno could be pushed beyond 'safe' with a few strange road conditions.
I think youve lost the intent of the dyno... which applies a load to simulate what you want it to. which changes during different stages of the tuning process. you can hold your RPM constant and move your tracer across the entire load range of the map using the load on the dyno. this allows you to individually tune all cells. you can tune at 3500 rpm and 10 tp or 3500 rpm at 100 tp. hop up to the next rpm row and tune cell by cell across the columns again and so on.
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Re: Virtual Dyno vs Dyno Tune vs .75*:1psi

Post by R34SR » Thu Oct 16, 2014 1:30 pm

Wow this is an old thread...nevertheless I'm not arguing that a dyno isn't an extremely useful tool, what I don't believe is that the torque curve is always capable of showing signs of knock. I strongly believe that DET cans allow you to pick up on the slightest hint of knock which is invalueable for tuning and should be used WITH a dyno. Im on my same built motor ,turbo for over 3 years....now with 335tq from a t28 and 102 octane, trust me it's a great way to make sure your motor is happy.
MEGASQUIRT 2 PNP
MAXIMA COILS
EAGLE-ARP-SUPERTECH 9:1 KA24DE
HOLSET HX35 .63 AR TURBO
Five-O 750cc INJECTORS
EMUSA CAST T3 Manifold
ISIS FMIC
CC WHITEBUNNY 6 PUCK CLUTCH
CTS V CALIPERS
STANCE LX+ Coilovers
J30 LSD
AME FS01 WHEELS 18X9 +25
FEDERAL 595SS 245/40/18


TinyT wrote:for the love of god, post your setup, do you really think you can get an answer after saying HI ME CAR HAS TURBO NOW BUT I CANT BWAAA PSHH WITH IT WHATS WRONG

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Re: Virtual Dyno vs Dyno Tune vs .75*:1psi

Post by sdaigle240 » Fri Oct 17, 2014 7:19 am

R34SR wrote:Wow this is an old thread...nevertheless I'm not arguing that a dyno isn't an extremely useful tool, what I don't believe is that the torque curve is always capable of showing signs of knock. I strongly believe that DET cans allow you to pick up on the slightest hint of knock which is invalueable for tuning and should be used WITH a dyno. Im on my same built motor ,turbo for over 3 years....now with 335tq from a t28 and 102 octane, trust me it's a great way to make sure your motor is happy.

i often read old threads, and saw i never responded to cody. its all good man. really... no ones arguing. its a discussion, and interesting one at that. No one can hate on det cans. Im just typing what i see first hand that has worked over the near 10 years ive been hanging around. everything in life has more than one way to do it, you know.

Ive had good results myself. 7 years and about 25k miles kat. and the shop i often hang out at has a top notch no complaints tuning repertoire. hes been doing it longer than ive owned a 240 and ive seen countless cars from muscle to near 1k hp hondas, and a **** ton of 240s. and pretty much all the 240s are drift cars that get flogged harder than any street car. most of the other cars are drag or street cars that also get beaten. Heres one he pushed pretty far that ran for years. the car passed hands and sadly the new owner died in the vehicle. rip.
airman wrote:I'm all about spreadsheets. Bitches love spreadsheets.
schmauster920 wrote:I shall cast my own pistons in the sands of time, then forge them in the depths of hell.. as funds allow
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hy35 18psi Build Thread: viewtopic.php?t=38784
RIP MJL best friend of 20 years and the man who showed me 240s

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