Tuning with a Knock Light

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dj_smooth
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Tuning with a Knock Light

Post by dj_smooth »

For those of you who do this, how exactly do you get it done. I'm using nistune. I started out with 8-bits timing map. Setup specifics aren't important as this is just a general question. I am however on 91 octane. I took 3 to 4 degree's out of 8- bits timing map and my knock light still goes to the orange. The car feels sluggish after that, but my light still shows mild knock. I basically do a full throttle pull in 3rd and map trace. As soon as my light pings to the orange I let off and take a degree or so out. I do have faith in this knock light. It has 6 lights and shows somewhat of the severety off the knock. Different tunes have made this light ping from green to straight red. Other tunes have shown less knock. It's just scary to me. Its hard for me do a full pull and log on virtual dyno to watch for changes on torque. As soon as that light pings a I let off. As in orange to red area. Can to little timing also cause this?

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Post by 8-bit »

If you have changed any hardware at all, you need to recalibrate the background engine noise. This was essential for the TurboXS Knock Lite. If you changed even a small thing, the background would be tweaked some and so you should always recalibrate.

Also, are your AFR still rich enough?

Also, can you provide more details on what your setup is, which of my tunes you are using, and possibly indicate where on the map (and the physical condition happening at the instance) you are seeing knock?
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Post by adamky »

Have you verified that base timing is correct? I'd triple check it to be sure. Follow the FSM procedure exactly.
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dj_smooth
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Post by dj_smooth »

8-bit
S14-Z32-550cc-gt2876r from host and post.
Air fuel at boost is around 11.5 per Wideband. I log in streaming mode. I may need to add a splash of fuel more though.
I caliberate my light any time I'm unsure or change anything. To include spark plug gaps.

Other Guy-

I have synced my base timing with the nistune consult multiple times to make sure. I will check it yet again for peace of mind. Cruise runs fine

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neverlift
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Post by neverlift »

is the input tracer accurate? looks like you need to add some fuel. I'm guessing around 13ish psi from the timing/fuel maps

after you check your timing, check it again, stock ecu can be lame about this..
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dj_smooth
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Post by dj_smooth »

Actual Wideband shows around 11.5. The map trace from what I've seen is close as far as accuracy. Any time you let off the throttle, it will show the most current, average, min, max. They could be a difference of 11.5 accle and full lean on decel. That is all cell/input depenent, but I'm sure you already knew that.
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Post by 8-bit »

what is your actual setup and your actual boost level you are seeing? where/how is your MAFS located?

Also.. did you change the K value? If so, from what to what?
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Post by dj_smooth »

9:1 compression
Eagle Rods
Acl main and rod bearings
ARP Head Studs
Felpro head gasket

TD05 20G
Z32 Custom Aluminum Housing 3" blow through
- Maf is after the intercooler
550cc SINGLE CAM deatchwerks injectors
Nistune
K value is 390. It is the same that you used on your tune. I'm running around 15 psi. The car made 318 at 16.5psi on the dyno. On the street my knock light would ping. I trust the light because of its 6 levels. The first 2 lights could be engine noise, after that the light will jump straight to the 4th or 5th light which is orange then red. Could to much retard cause knock light symptoms as well? I have about 3 to 4 degrees pulled out of 8-bits map around the 72 to 90 load portion. I would imagine that my timing would be closer to someone running the same power level than psi. Reason being is that a smaller turbo puts out less cfm than a larger one.

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Post by neverlift »

is that maf housing sealed?
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dj_smooth
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Post by dj_smooth »

RTV around the plug and the cover. I leak checks my whole piping multiple times. It's good. It's just a small turbo I guess. The td06 20g is what comes on the greddy kit. With that turbo the car made 278 whp at 12lbs. This turbo is a td05 20g. It made 318 on 16.5 psi. That's a 4.5 psi difference
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Post by 8-bit »

So to be clear, your maptrace going to the TP column value 99 was while doing a 16.5psi pull on your TDO5 20G turbo, KA24DET with 550cc injectors and a blow through coldside mounted MAFS?

Please don't make me deduce this stuff. Tell me the story with all of the relevant points connected and hopefully elaborated.

At what TP value, specifically, is the knock signal kicking on? I know once it spools and boost slams in, it jumps pretty fast so it might be hard to catch.... Are you seeing the knock right as the boost is loading in, or after it's wastegating at full boost and riding up the RPM as the car accelerates?

-------------

Also, what are your idle/cruise AFR? That tune you're using is one of my favorite street tunes. I was using a HOTSIDE blow-through MAFS, though. Also I had the plastic housing. This may or may not matter, but it might have somethign to do with how your TP values are being produced by MAFs signals and what 'real boost load' that actually represents.
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dj_smooth
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Post by dj_smooth »

Correct:
Aluminum Z32 Maf Housing on Cold Side
550cc KA24(E) deatchwerks injectors
TD05 20G internally wastegated.

To be honest, I have not really pushed the car to redline yet. I do a 3rd gear pull and as soon as my light starts going to the orange I let off and reduce timing. My light will flicker for engine noise and then jump to orange at which point I let off ASAP. I use the trace to see round about where the knock light kicked to orange or red. Since the trace only shows what cells I accessed, my highest load portion / rpm will show were I let off when I saw knock. At that point I reduce the timing values around those 2 columns. While logging I watch my light and the road otherwise I might miss my light. The light has a recall function to show what my highest knock during my pull. I do a separate pull watching my Wideband to make sure air fuel is good. After I reduced timing from 8-bits map, i proceeded to play with it. When I ran 8-bits map, my knock light would go red. Keep in mind that I calibrated my light often to make sure it's accurate. When I pulled timing out, my knock light did not go to red, Just orange.

My first pull on the dyno was using your timing map. That tune made 318. Then timing was reduced to make it safe and I ended up with 297 give or take. Even with that tune the knock light would go off. I proceeded to try a different tuner and got similar power. My other threads show this. Both tuners said the car did not knock on their dyno. However, on the street my light pings to the red.

The whole goal is to learn how to tune myself. Forgive me if I sound ignorant in my post. I try to keep things as relevant as possible and only introduce what variables (I THINK) that will help tell the story. I have had an engine blow once and I don't want it to happen again.

Idle and cruise air fuel are pretty close to the theoretical values. I use the AUTO AIR FUEL TUNER to get my idle where I want it and to tune for gas mileage while cruising. I have the VQ Map checked to help achieve that. The auto tuner is not used in boost of course.

I could explain better or phone rather than through a cellular device.

8-bit Check your PM's. I sent you my number. You can call if you like.

Appreciate everyone's help so far.
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Post by schmauster920 »

Have you checked to make sure your TPS idle flag shows up when the throttle is closed? Also make sure the ecu is seeing the right temp from the temp sensor.

I had detonation issues until i fixed those 2 problems on a tuned ecu.
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dj_smooth
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Post by dj_smooth »

My coolant temp rises steadily as the engine warms up and shows between 180 to 190 after warm up. TPS idle shows closed on the consult at idle.
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Re: Tuning with a Knock Light

Post by dj_smooth »

Here is a video of the knock light on a test bench.
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=4006397111556
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Re: Tuning with a Knock Light

Post by 8-bit »

Since you were on a Dyno and had no knock (according to the tuners) and the light is going off, my guess is that the light is not accurate. The TurboXS Knock Lite could be calibrated AND adjusted for sensitivity. You might go back to the dyno, have them hook up det cans or a microphone, and do pulls that actually induce knock to gain some reference as to what sensitivity or output your light actually does.

Also, make sure your car performs with my tune as it is intended. Make sure your TP scaling is still accurate. The tune is generic-ish, but well thought out. My opinion is that for many people a simple adjustment to the TP scaling can take someone else's good tune for a given setup and make it useful on another similar setup.

So... one way to approach this is to see if your atmospheric power output matches the correct column. And then what 12psi does, etc, as the tune is framed a certain way. The tune is well described in the following image (please ignore the 'how to condense an NA tune part" for context here):
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What I would do.

Step 0) You might consider retuning the K/injLatency just to make sure.

1) I would start over with my tune from scratch. Since the AFRs are matching up well and the car runs smooth with idling, etc, leave the K/Latency alone.

2) Do some diagnostic pulls to see exactly how your car acts in reference to the tune regions as described in the image I'm sharing. 12 psi is at 99TP. If you're seeing 16.5psi there, this means your MAFS reads are a bit different and the TP scaling needs to change, not the tune (in general).

3) RE-Scale your TP so that when you're doing an atmospheric pull, NO BOOST AT ALL, HOLDING IT LIKE A BOSS, the average TP you see from several tests is what becomes the value in the column that is currently "54". The math to translate the TP scale from mine to yours should be somewhat easy. If your pulls at NA pressure show a 48, you divide 48/54 for a coefficient (about 0.89). You take the whole TP scale for fuel and for Timing (and possibly VE) and multiply each number by 0.89. Bam. RESCALED. Now go drive and prove it is better matched.

4) The tune you're playing with is set up for 12psi and then about 14psi and then overboost. You will need to adjust the TP scaling specifically in the higher end, and the timing, to accommodate your intended higher boost amount. After rescaling the TP per step 3, I would predict the TP for your wastegate boost level (16.5psi is 1.12 bar) If your NA produced TP value was 48, you would multiply 48 x 2.12 (1 for atmospheric and 1.12 for boost) to produce = 101.76. This means you would have a column for about 102 that represents your 16.5psi boost. Test this empirically and fine-tune adjust. The kinetics of air and your turbo, etc, don't always mean some linear progression of air pressure and TP.

5) While the cruise/NA/low-boost regions from my map, once the TP is rescaled, is probably still accurate, toying with the higher boost TP scale column numbers to accommodate your higher PSI means the timing values need to be re-predicted a bit. This can probably be done column-by-column with some very simple math adjustments.

6) Re test everything empirically and validate. Set the tune up to follow the basic rules we've all heard 1000 times.

7) Fine tune to push the knock light (once you've validated it goes off correctly) and then back off by 1-2 degrees so that it never really comes on again except maybe once in a long while with a rare blip that probably isn't anything.

Let me know if this is enough detail. I hope I remember to check back on this thread. PM me for my attention. I get reminders emailed to me when I get PMs. I want to talk about this on this open thread though because its informative for others.
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dj_smooth
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Re: Tuning with a Knock Light

Post by dj_smooth »

I am going to have to hold off on any more tuning. Plus I'll be deploying again.
I can't get a consistent tune. This turbo boost creeps like non other. I tried to go external but the threadstone manifold will not work with the 3 bolt exhaust housing. Side by side view of Greddy manifold vs threadstone.
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Re: Tuning with a Knock Light

Post by duncan351 »

This is just my opinion but your turbo is too small for what you are trying to do. Its too much cylinder pressure between combustion chamber and turbo charger. Not to mention the greddy manifold (if that's what you're running isn't even balanced. The runners are different lengths which makes it even harder to tune because each cylinder will have different pressures. You probably can get away with 10-12psi tops with your current setup. 318, dude I was honestly making that in 2001 with a 50 t3/T4 hybrid. If you change manifolds and go to a bigger turbo that knock light won't be lighting up like a Chrismas tree.
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