Nismotronicsa

Discussion about ECU Tuning Products and Theories
alr11606
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Nismotronicsa

Post by alr11606 »

Hey guys I've searched a bit and i'm stuck between the MSPNP kit for my s13 ka24de or the nismotronicsa package. Which would you all recommend? The car will be a basic t3/t4 on 550cc injectors and speed density conversion. I'm wanting 260whp on pump gas. The engine is a bone stock KA24de with only 105,000miles and has good compression.... So its pretty healthy.

I'm mainly going standalone for the safety of the timing and tune as well as having room to grow easily.

Thanks,
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

Just read the features for each one,then decide what would be best for you.

So far I love nismotronic. I bought a pair, one for each s13 I own!
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by alr11606 »

I've read the features and they seem pretty even, but i'm question which one is more reliable? I've read about alot of knit picking issues with the MS and AEM. Does anyone really have issues with nismotronicsa?
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

I currently run nismotronic on my daily driver. No strange issues here. I want to convert it to speed density soon. Right now I'm just running it on a stock ka24de
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by BigLoukaT »

alr11606 wrote:I've read the features and they seem pretty even, but i'm question which one is more reliable? I've read about alot of knit picking issues with the MS and AEM. Does anyone really have issues with nismotronicsa?
...like what? I've been very happy with my megasquirt setup.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by alr11606 »

It seems like alot of people have sync issues with megasquirts, Maybe it's the person, some have good experiences some don't but this car is a regularly driven car over decent distances, so i want it to be reliable.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

That has NEVER Been an issue with my nismotronic. Still runs the factory cas disc as well.

Also I finally switched to map today! Woohoo!!
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by solo227 »

there almost the same... Just use whats cheaper and easier for you to understand so troubleshooting will be much less an issue...

I got a buddy that switched from Nistune to Nismotronic and loves it. Hes on a SR20 setup... Im going built KA and will be running Nismotronic...
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by alr11606 »

Looks like i'll be going with nismotronic, I'm going to upgrade to a z32 just because i don't want to run at the ragged edge of the stocker so in case of a boost spike it can compensate.

Thanks for the info guys, It's been alot of help....BTW whats the highest hp anyone has made on a nismotronic style ecu on the ka24? I would like room to grow to 500-600hp in the future with a built motor.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by JKTUNING »

alr11606 wrote:Looks like i'll be going with nismotronic, I'm going to upgrade to a z32 just because i don't want to run at the ragged edge of the stocker so in case of a boost spike it can compensate.

Thanks for the info guys, It's been alot of help....BTW whats the highest hp anyone has made on a nismotronic style ecu on the ka24? I would like room to grow to 500-600hp in the future with a built motor.
I am not sure on the "highest hp" but I have personally tuned multiple 650-700 whp KA/SR20s and I know of a bunch more from customer's and dealers that are in that range or even higher.

The NismoTronicSA platform is capable of controlling pretty much anything you can throw at it as long as you have the proper engine/injectors/ignition to support the power you want to make.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

Also to the OP,

I'd go ahead and skip the z32 maf and go straight for the MAP conversion. With the GM 3 bar map sensor you'll be good up to 28psi and incase a coupler pops off, you won't be stranded on the side of the road.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Jybfan04 »

solo227 wrote:there almost the same... Just use whats cheaper and easier for you to understand so troubleshooting will be much less an issue...

I got a buddy that switched from Nistune to Nismotronic and loves it. Hes on a SR20 setup... Im going built KA and will be running Nismotronic...

I sure do, and John did a hell of a job tuning it too..

Can't wait to upgrade my turbo..

I also love the capacity that MAP gives you over MAF...

Having slight intercooler leaks still allows me to run my car with no issues..

Bug ups to John Kerr and David Dunn for a solid product!
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by jholman05 »

I love my Nismotronic as well. My dad and I both have them on our S13 KA-t's. I'm running a Garrett GT2876R, atp ewg housing with Tial MVR, FD RX7 850cc sidefeeds, AEM water/meth, N62 drawthrough and made 440whp/380wtq at 23psi. The boost by gear is awesome, I still need to dial it in, but 1st and 2nd are wastegate spring 10psi, 3rd is 16psi, 4th and 5th are 23psi. Just got done driving it on a 1000 mile round trip vacation, my dad made the same trip in his car. His is a more standard 2871/550cc/N62 at 16psi and made 300whp and 340wtq.

Here's my dyno sheet, hard to see, maybe I'll scan it in sometime.
Image
Image
2012 - S14 KA, Nismotronic, GTi-R T28 12psi, Meth, PSM HMIC, DW550cc, N62, S15 HLSD, Spec 3, Fidanza = 12.4 @ 110
2013 - 9.0 Wiseco/Manley, Nismotronic, GT2876R 23psi, Meth, PSM HMIC, 850cc, N62, S15 HLSD, Z32 Spec 3, D21 Fidanza = ??.? @ ??? 440whp/380wtq
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Kfred »

Can your run individual coils with an S13 ka nismotronic ecu?

If I were considering the two, the COP capability would be high on my must have list.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

Kfred you'll need a s13 sr20det ecu for cop. The ka24de lacks the hardware to support 4 coils.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by basic »

Since there is a subject for this, I thought I would just post these questions here:

1) When sitting up IAT for speed density based tuning, the setup guide says if you have an EGR temp sensor pin for your ECU you can use this, otherwise you have to use one of the ADC w/ a voltage divider. My question is this - which ECU's support the EGR temp sensor? Is it cali models? Are there part nums for the ecus? I have 3 KA24de ecu's that I could install this in, so I'm just curious which would be the best one to use.

2) on the note of the WB02 using the stock O2 line - it says to use a equal voltage voltage divider on the output of the WB02 (Innovate LC1 in my case). Does this just mean two equal value resistors in series and take the ECU 02 line from in between them? There's not a good schematic out there, nor are there any resistor values that I could find.

I'm thinking it must be like this picture: Image
E is the 0-5V signal from the WB02
Vout to ECU pin 19
R1=R2
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Kfred »

I don't know about the EGR stuff.

Your voltage divider looks right though. What ohm resistors do you plan on using?
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

For the iat you only use a resistor inline, no voltage divider. Check the nismotronic manual, it has a diagram and what resistor to use. That is how I have mine setup in my daily.

I am running a CA emissions ecu but I couldn't get the iat to work through the ecu itself with a gm sensor, only with the stock egr temp sensor for some reason.... I was going to look into it again when I have time. Maybe I was doing something wrong?
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by basic »

Alonso wrote:For the iat you only use a resistor inline, no voltage divider. Check the nismotronic manual, it has a diagram and what resistor to use. That is how I have mine setup in my daily.

I am running a CA emissions ecu but I couldn't get the iat to work through the ecu itself with a gm sensor, only with the stock egr temp sensor for some reason.... I was going to look into it again when I have time. Maybe I was doing something wrong?

Yea, the IAT is a different issue - in the manual it says you can use the EGR temp input directly (no resistor) for the IAT (if you ecu supports it) -
http://www.nismotronic.com/Help/IAT_Installation.html

If your ECU doesn't support an EGR temp sensor, then you use one of the ADC inputs + voltage divider. The resistor really isn't hooked in line, it's hooked up as a voltage divider using the temp sensor as one leg and the 5k resistor as the other. You are taking the reading between the voltage divider and the IAT sensor. I really just want to know what S13 DOHC ECU's support the EGR temp sensor (if any)?

As for the O2 sensor - it says "If "O2 INPUT" selected, the 0-5V wideband output requires a divide by 2 voltage divider before the narrow band O2 sensor ECU input." This makes me feel like the halfing one from above may be what it's talking about, but I'm not sure.

check the wideband setup section of this - http://www.nismotronic.com/Help/TCSA_SETUP.html

As for resistor values, probably something pretty high to keep the current down. I was thinking maybe 1K resistors, should only flow a max of 2.5mA from the LC-1 then. I may up this to 5K to drop the current to 0.5mA - I'm really open to opinions on this. I don't want to be flowing a bunch of un-needed current from my LC-1. I don't really know how much current the ECU needs from the O2 Sensor line. :?:
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Kfred »

I don't know the impedance of the A/D circuit in the factory ECU, but I'd guess it is on the order of 10M.
2.5 volts / 10Mohms = 0.25uA

For the most accuracy you want the ratio of AD current to total circuit current to be small (low resistance in voltage divider). The trade off is power consumption. I'd probably go with 10k resistors. The analog outputs on the LC1 are probably designed to be read (extremely small currents).

However....

You are blessed with programmable analog outputs with the LC1. Just program the LC1 to output 0v-2.5v on the analog output connected to pin 19 and forget the voltage divider. This will be the most accurate and hassle free method.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by basic »

Good point on the programmable output, hadn't thought about that. That's defiantly the route I am going to take.


Now to figure out the ECU model issue. Maybe tomorrow I'll take a look at the FSM and see if there's any info on models that used the EGR temp sensor.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

I stand corrected. Im not a master of electronics, I just followed the directions lol.

I did use a 4.7k ohm resistor as this is what is used for the preset scaling in the program and was easily found at the local radio shack.

All california ecus have the egr temp sensor. From what i have seen the S13 engine harnesses are prewired for the egr temp sensor as well, CA emissions or not.

For whatever reason I couldn't get a reading with the iat wired directly to the ecu(CA emissions), I was forced to use an ADC input instead. Been running like that for months now without any issues.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by basic »

As luck would have it, one of my ecus is from a California emissions convertible (at least according to the list on jimwolftechnology) so hopefully I can get the iat to work. If not I will have to use one of the ADC inputs.

On the note of the programming vs voltage divider on the lc1 - I wonder if I gain any resolution in input by using one of the ADC with 0-5v as opposed to using the O2 input and 0-2.5V. I don't really know how the LC1 is outputting its analog signal, but I'm guessing its probably just a filtered PWM signal. What really matters is the number of bits on the ecu O2 line vs the NEMU ADC. Maybe JKtuning will pop in and suggest a course of action.

Rev B - Correction of source of ECU list.
Last edited by basic on Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by OnTheChip »

basic wrote:As luck would have it, one of my ecus is from a California emissions convertible (at least according to the list on jgs) so hopefully I can get the iat to work. If not I will have to use one of the ADC inputs.

On the note of the programming vs voltage divider on the lc1 - I wonder if I gain any resolution in input by using one of the ADC with 0-5v as opposed to using the O2 input and 0-2.5V. I don't really know how the LC1 is outputting its analog signal, but I'm guessing its probably just a filtered PWM signal. What really matters is the number of bits on the ecu O2 line vs the NEMU ADC. Maybe JKtuning will pop in and suggest a course of action.
Great question!
The analog inputs on both the ECU and the NEMU are 10bit, so there's no loss in resolution with either.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by basic »

So both are 10 bit....so, maybe I'm incorrect here (I'm a mechanical and not an electrical engineer) but it would actually be better to use the O2 input sensor than the ADC.

Here's the logic - using the O2 sensor and a divide by half voltage divider (or programming the WB02 to output between 0-2.5V) results in a possible voltage range between 0 and 2.5V.

The ADC has a possible range of 0-5V.

Since they are both 10 bit inputs, with the O2 sensor you have a resolution of about 2.44 mV/step,
(2.5V/1024 steps) where as the 0-5V you would have twice that (4.88 mV/step). So really, the O2 input has a better resolution and should read closer to what the actual input voltage is.

NOW, that being said, the LC-1 only has a 10bit 0-5V output; so 0-1023 steps over 5 volts (the same 4.88mV/step).
If you limit it to 0-2.5; the LC1 simply cuts the possible values in half to 0-511 - still 4.88mV/step. Using this logic, it's better to use the full 0-5V and the voltage divider to get a higher resolution (since the voltage divider is true analog) and you will end up with 1024 steps between 0-2.5V.

Maybe I'm over-thinking this and you really don't gain anything using the ECU O2 input>?

Maybe OnTheChip can comment on this, and if that is the case maybe suggest some resistors for the voltage divider?
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by OnTheChip »

As a fellow ME, I know exactly how you're thinking, and get accused often of over-thinking things. ;) Either way you connect the LC1 there will be plenty of resolution because both voltage ranges are still 10bit. If you look at it in terms of the voltage to AFR conversion range, either connection will give you (22.39-7.35)/1024 = 0.015 AFR resolution, which is the nearest half a 100th. Most gauges only display to the nearest 10th because the 0.01 digit would be changing so fast you couldn't read it anyway. Any references to tuning AFR I've seen or heard specify only to the nearest 10th AFR.

If you want to use the ECU O2 input, your best bet is to reprogram the LC1 analog #2 output to 0-2.5V. If you would rather use a divider with the default #2 output, 10k ohm resistors should be fine. That's what I used with my PLX without problems. NismotronicSA supports the LC1 directly and includes the ability to set an offset to compensate for any ground reference differences regardless of how it's connected.
Last edited by OnTheChip on Mon Jun 16, 2014 5:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Kfred »

I'm a CHE here, and I'm just getting into "computer science" stuff. I've been tinkering around with an Arduino, and it really helps accelerate learning.

I understand all of the above and still think that programming the output to 0-2.5v is the best option.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by basic »

Yea, I'm pretty much set on doing that. Just had to reason out all the options. OnTheChip makes a good point about the resolution of LC-1... realistically the LC-1 is only accurate to +- 0.1AFR anyway.

I'm also been dabbling a bit in Arduino stuff. Have some interesting projects as well as some failures. I feel like i have learned a lot there, but know I still have a ton to learn. I had one programming class back in college, and had forgotten most of that, but its amazing how much actually comes back to you after you do it for a bit.

Anyway, I've got the header installed in the ECU, and the wires soldered to the ecu pins. I'm currently waiting on my IAT sensor to come in from DIY and then I'll be trying to convert to MAP/IAT on stock injectors and NA. Just want to do everything one step at a time so I understand all the variables and the effects of changes.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Matt Cramer »

basic wrote:Yea, I'm pretty much set on doing that. Just had to reason out all the options. OnTheChip makes a good point about the resolution of LC-1... realistically the LC-1 is only accurate to +- 0.1AFR anyway.
That's the biggest thing - significant figures. It does no good to bring the signal in to the ECU with 0.01 AFR accuracy if the sensor can't measure any more accurately than 0.1 AFR.
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Re: Nismotronicsa

Post by Alonso »

basic wrote: ...and then I'll be trying to convert to MAP/IAT on stock injectors and NA. Just want to do everything one step at a time so I understand all the variables and the effects of changes.
Just a heads up, the base tunes provided are too lean to run. You'll have to increase the map factor a bit just so it will run/idle.

I can share my tune if you'd like, lmk. I'm running a gm 3bar map and iat with stock injectors as well.
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