Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd, S14

[adamky]

I guess I'm overdue to post some updates. I'm now at over 168K on the odometer, which means I have 13,000+ miles on this motor so far. (The rebuild was at 155,111 miles, which was in September of 2016). She is still kicking a55 and going strong!!



So, after d!cking around with this for well over a year, I FINALLY have the brushless vacuum pump setup all installed in the car and working. The new brushless motor itself is a huge step up over the old brushed motor. It screams at full speed. It pulled -7.5 inHg on my test bench, which is twice the vacuum that the old brushed motor could pull. I think it may actually be able to keep up with higher boost levels (and the resultant increase in blow-by) that the old brushed motor simply couldn't handle. If it doesn't, I have a backup plan. So, we'll see...

I mounted my 2 relays, my Electronic Speed Controller, a 50 amp breaker, and my hacked servo tester to a scrap piece of aluminum and mounted the whole thing to the side of the trunk just above my battery box.

One relay controls main power to the ESC and servo tester. The other relay simply closes a connection that forces the servo tester to speed the motor up to whatever speed I specify. The speed can be changed using a 1/4 watt resistor that can be swapped out.

The whole thing is programmed to activate whenever intake manifold pressure is above -2 inHg and the vacuum in the tank is BELOW -4 inHg. Once activated, it pulls a solid -7 inHg and stays on until either the intake manifold vacuum drops below -2" inHg, or the vacuum in the vacuum tank gets below -8 inHg.



To sum it up.... anytime the intake manifold is under boost and the vacuum tank is below -4 inHg, the pump will be active, ensuring that there is constant vacuum in the tank (and the crankcase). And this will hopefully keep my dipstick from blowing out on long 4th and 5th gear pulls.

So far, the vacuum pump doesn't seem to hit the electrical system too hard on activation, which is good. And voltage only dropped like 0.1-0.2 volts while it was running. I was kind of worried it was going to be more of an electrical drain than what it it is.


Pictures:





In addition to the pump, I installed an additional one way check valve going to the vacuum pump with a junction pipe connecting the two outputs together. This is because I realized that there was a good chance that using only one valve was limiting how fast I could pull air out of the tank. The check valves open at a very low cracking pressure, like .5 psi, but they don't seem to flow a lot of air once open. Hopefully the combination of the brushless pump as well as the additional valve will fix this and I can refocus on tuning this b!tch on speed density!

Here's the additional one-way valve installed with the junction pipe connecting the two together:

[s14fiend]

I guess I'm overdue to post some updates. I'm now at over 168K on the odometer, which means I have 13,000+ miles on this motor so far. (The rebuild was at 155,111 miles, which was in September of 2016). She is still kicking a55 and going strong!!



So, after d!cking around with this for well over a year, I FINALLY have the brushless vacuum pump setup all installed in the car and working. The vacuum pump itself is a huge step up over the old brushed motor. It screams at full throttle. It pulled -7.5 inHg on my test bench, which is twice the vacuum that the old one could pull. I think it may actually be able to keep up with higher boost levels (and the resultant increase in blow-by) that the old brushed motor simply couldn't handle. If it doesn't, I have a backup plan. So, we'll see...

I mounted my 2 relays, my Electronic Speed Controller, a 50 amp breaker, and my hacked servo tester to a scrap piece of aluminum and mounted the whole thing to the side of the trunk just above my battery box.

One relay controls main power to the ESC and servo tester. The other relay simply closes a connection that forces the servo tester to speed the motor up to whatever speed I specify. The speed can be changed using a 1/4 watt resistor that can be swapped out.

The whole thing is programmed to activate whenever intake manifold pressure is above -2 inHg and the vacuum in the tank is BELOW -4 inHg. Once activated, it pulls a solid -6 inHg and stays on until either the intake manifold vacuum drops below -2" inHg, or the vacuum in the vacuum tank gets below -8 inHg.



To sum it up.... anytime the intake manifold is under boost and the vacuum tank is below -4 inHg, the pump will be active, ensuring that there is constant vacuum in the tank (and the crankcase). And this will hopefully keep my dipstick from blowing out on long 4th and 5th gear pulls.

So far, the vacuum pump doesn't seem to hit the electrical system too hard on activation, which is good. And voltage only dropped like 0.1-0.2 volts while it was running. I was kind of worried it was going to be more of an electrical drain than what it it is.


Pictures:





In addition to the pump, I installed an additional one way check valve going to the vacuum pump with a junction pipe connecting the two outputs together. This is because I realized that there was a good chance that using only one valve was limiting how fast I could pull air out of the tank. The check valves open at a very low cracking pressure, like .5 psi, but they don't seem to flow a lot of air once open. Hopefully the combination of the brushless pump as well as the additional valve will fix this and I can refocus on tuning this b!tch on speed density!

Here's the additional one-way valve installed with the junction pipe connecting the two together:

Good to hear someone is still wrenching on these things.... keep us posted no the progress and results.

I take it this would theoretically let the engine and engine oil last longer?

[nelson240sx]

this is cool, some home brew projects

[adamky]

Good to hear someone is still wrenching on these things.... keep us posted no the progress and results.

I take it this would theoretically let the engine and engine oil last longer?

Yes, one of the vacuum setup's main advantages is that it keeps the oil cleaner. And I'm hoping the motor will last longer as a result.

this is cool, some home brew projects

Thanks man.


The new vacuum pump is working great so far. Since it wasn't causing much of a drain electrically, I went ahead and bumped the motor speed up to the max, which pulls -7 inHg. I have yet to see the tank get less than -4 inHg, and it only does that for a moment before the vacuum pump is activated and gets it back to -7. I also haven't blown the dipstick out yet.

I can hear the pump as it kicks on. It's faint, but it sounds so cool, and it is so satisfying to see the vacuum in the tank jump so quickly from -4 to -7 inHg and just stay there as I continue accelerating.

What's cool is that I ALWAYS have vacuum in my crankcase now, and 98% of the time, it's a completely passive system... meaning, no pump is necessary as it all runs off of the "reserve" vacuum in the vacuum tank.

It's been a learning process and a lot of trial-and-error getting this vacuum setup sorted out, but I couldn't be more pleased with how it is working right now.

[nelson240sx]

How much power is she making? That's impressive that it maintains vacuum while getting beat on.

I'm torn on what I want to do as far as crankcase ventilation on my new setup. I'm currently recirculating into the turbo inlet, but with the new build being high compression turbo I'm worried about it lowering the octane if I keep it the same and causing detonation. Might vent it into the exhaust or just do an atmosphere setup.

[adamky]

Oh, its around 350-380 whp on pump gas, close to 500 on E85.

I just started adding ethanol back into the tank after going the entire winter without it. I'm up to 71% ethanol on this tank. I also cranked the boost up to 22 again. She rips!!!!!!!!!

I had some fun the past week or so and while I haven't pushed the dipstick out significantly, it has gotten pushed out a tiny amount. It's like a 16th of an inch, if that. But that's enough to drop my vacuum in my PCV tank from -15 to -11 at idle. It is still working so much better than it was previously. I'm no longer getting the big puff of smoke from under the hood as the dipstick blows out. Now, it's just barely pushing it. I don't see any smoke when it does it either.

There is still a little vacuum in the tank when this has occurred, so it looks like I'm just not getting the blow-by into the tank quickly enough. I'm thinking that a second -8AN line from the valve cover vent (which is currently plugged) to the vacuum tank may fix it. Other options include figuring out a way to lock the dipstick down. Or, I could figure out a way to bump the voltage to my vacuum motor to around 20V, at which point it should pull close to -10inHg. Also at that point, the pumps compressor wheel could explode... lol. Hopefully not, but it was never designed to spin @ 3-4 times the speed I will need to spin it to. And lastly, I could try replacing the motor with one with a slightly higher KV, which means it would spin at higher RPMs.

[nelson240sx]

Need a video walk around of this thing in action. Want to see/hear the tank charge up and see how she pulls

[adamky]

I can definitely do a walk around vid soon.

I have an update on the situation. It seemed like it started blowing out the dipstick more and more easily and I wasn't sure why.

So, for the heck of it, I decided to empty my vacuum tank for the first time in 6 months (maybe more, I'm not sure). Well, I was very surprised to see that it had almost 3 GALLONS! of water, oil and fuel in it (mostly water, of course)!! I couldn't fcuking believe how much fluid just kept coming out. That nasty stuff would have been in my oil...



Its only a 7 gallon tank, so it was almost half full. I believe that the huge reduction in volume was causing my dipstick to constantly pop out on long highway pulls because the vacuum reserve was being depleted so quickly. I haven't blown the dipstick out since emptying the tank.


That being said, I am still going add a second -8AN line from the valve cover to the tank. I am very confident that the second line will allow the vacuum pump to pull the blow-by out fast enough to keep the crankcase from getting pressurized, even if I crank the boost up more... which I fully intend to do...

[cleantune]

The projects you've been working on are always so cool! keep up the great work!!

[nelson240sx]

It crazy when you see what would normally be staying in the oil if you didn't have the vacuum setup. I get a lot of water condensation in my catch cans. Must be nice to only need to empty the tank every 6 months, haha.

[adamky]

I know. It blows me away. I think it's got a couple more gallons in it now. I can tell by how fast the vacuum depletes as to whether the tank is getting full.

I raced a stretched/modded 600cc bike a couple nights ago, and for once, I got some of it on film. Granted, I only got the last part of it on film, but I'll take it...

https://youtu.be/zBPwDIgfkho

[nelson240sx]

Looks like you're enjoying it, haha....good stuff

[adamky]

This was the odometer readout when I built the motor: 155,111 miles

This was yesterday: 175,152 miles


I have now put over 20,000 miles on the same exact setup that I have been beating the crap out of for the past 3+ years. I'm even on the same clutch and pressure plate, and it still holds the power like a champ!! And when I say I beat the crap out of it, I mean it. It's been my DD for a while now and there literally is not a day that I drive it that I don't do multiple 20-22 psi pulls. Daily. For 20,000+ miles.

The motor still feels good and strong and runs like a champ. I actually just changed my cam timing back to stock this weekend (intake was 5* retarded and exhaust was 5* advanced). I like the powerband a lot better. It lost a little bit of mid range but it pulls like a freight train to redline now. I didn't think it felt as fast at first, but then I realized it was only hitting 19-20 psi now, instead of 22. I adjusted the tune to bump the boost back up to 22 psi and it feels a LOT faster. I was actually getting a little squirrelly in 4th yesterday. Felt great!

BTW, my car has a fairly soft suspension and squats hard during acceleration. With about 100lbs of tools and other crap in the back, it hooks very well considering the mediocre tires I run (BFG Sport Comp II's). If it's just me in the car and I take all of the tools and extra crap out, traction is definitely more of an issue. It will get sideways in 3rd fairly easily/often. So, I actually prefer it with the extra weight of the tools in the back.

One last note, boost-by-gear is one of the best features you can have for a turbo car. There is no way I'd have any traction in 1st-3rd without it. Mine is setup like this:
1st gear: 15 psi (wastegate)
2nd: 17 psi
3rd: 19-20 psi
4th: 22-23 psi
5th: 22-23 psi

[EnnEssEnnKAT]

Why did you decide to avoid placing more ports on the valve cover and go with the vacuum pump route? Also how did you decide to optimize the vac to neg pressure at all times - I would have thought a little pressure in the crank case is good to resist combustion blow by as opposed to drawing it in with vacuum. I run a breather on the vc and a pre turbo post maf line to the pcv via a catch can, screwed around with a few setups and this one seems to work best for me, wondering what an upgrade to the system would look like.

[adamky]

I was VTA before and didn't like it for a number of reasons. Vacuum in the crankcase is always preferred. This was the first article that popped up when I searched for "benefits of vacuum in crankcase" ---> https://dsportmag.com/the-tech/quick-te ... re-part-1/

When pressure in the crankcase can be reduced, taken to zero or even made less than zero (vacuum), good things happen. Reduced crankcase pressure improves the sealing of the rings in the cylinder. Increased differential pressure on the piston rings results in improved ring seal. On turbocharged applications, exhaust backpressure is generally higher than crankcase pressure, so the exhaust stroke has little issues with ring seal due to the differential pressure. Even on an all-motor application, the differential pressure on the rings will be high during the compression and power strokes. Unfortunately, the differential pressure during the intake stroke may be so low that the ring fails to make an ideal seal in its groove when crankcase pressures are high. Having zero pressure or better yet vacuum (less than atmospheric zero), improves the ring seal during the intake stroke. In fact, some of the issues with losing ring seal at higher engine speeds or when thicker rings are used can be offset when the crankcase is under vacuum instead of pressure. If fact, the best engine developers always consider the type of oiling system and amount of crankcase pressure (positive, zero or vacuum) that will be expected when selecting the ring package for a specific application.

Better ring seal leads to improved performance and efficiency from any piston engine. Manufacturers, machinists and engine developers know that rounder cylinders, flatter piston ring grooves, thinner piston rings and improved cylinder finishes can all contribute to improved ring seal in the cylinder. Ring seal quality can have a bit of a chicken-and-egg relationship. Whenever the ring seal is improved, less blow-by is put into the engine’s crankcase. Hence, crankcase pressures are also reduced. Lower crankcase pressures improve the quality of the ring seal.

In that article above, they saw 10-20 whp gains just by reducing crankcase pressure from ~4.5 psi to ~1.0 psi. The more air you pull out of the engine, the more gains you will see (up to a certain point, of course).

In addition to improving ring seal, keeping a vacuum in the crankcase means less wind resistance for the spinning crank and moving pistons. This equals more HP. One of our members on here, Greaser, saw a legit 10whp gain on his crazy high-compression N/A KA when he changed from VTA to this setup. For the record, he's the one that came up with this unconventional PCV approach. I'm just a copycat who saw a good idea and ran with it.
That being said, the addition of the electric vacuum pump (and the brushless motor upgrade) were both my ideas, and I wouldn't be able to run this setup on my car without it. That's because I am running a lot of boost and my 7-gallon vacuum tank simply doesn't have enough capacity to maintain vacuum on long pulls.

Another benefit is that the giant vacuum tank is constantly pulling all of the nasty blow-by OUT of the engine, thereby keeping my oil cleaner. And it definitely does that, because my oil stays clear and fresh-smelling significantly longer than it EVER has previously. The last time I emptied the air tank, there was almost 3 gallons of nasty crap in it.

And lastly, keeping a vacuum in the crankcase keeps oil from trying to push past seals, thereby keeping more oil IN your engine (as well as keeping the exterior of the engine cleaner).


Speaking of extra ports though... I did finally get around to adding a second -8 line from the valve cover vent back to the vacuum tank in the trunk. This doubles the amount of air that the vacuum tank can pull out of the engine's crankcase. With this change, I don't think I'll have any more issues with the dipstick pushing/blowing out on long pulls. I tested it yesterday by running through 3rd-5th gears @23psi and the dipstick never blew out..

Pics:

[Cerevo]

Man I love this build, you have me almost convinced to go turbo Ka over a v8 swap (for a number of reasons, mainly it's my daily) but also considering this vacuum setup for my Evo. I rebuilt that engine about 2 years ago and has about 12k miles on it I think and now Cyl 3 is lower compression by about 40 psi than the other 3, I wonder if I could get that back with vacuum, or if nothing else, save it from doing that again after another rebuild.

I'm also very interested in the zinc plating you've done. Seems like anyone could do that with a little knowledge and the results are awesome.
Either way thanks for making this thread and letting me learn from you!
Good to see another ky guy on the forums

[adamky]

I've been having trouble with keeping AFR's stable during high boost/RPM for a while now, especially in 4th/5th gears (which both get 22-24 psi using boost-by-gear). It will get these spikes where the AFR will hit high 11s to low 12s. I finally decided to hook up the laptop to see if I could see anything odd going on. Sure enough, at these higher boost levels, my fuel pressure is fluctuating wildly, in some cases dropping from 65-70 psi down to 54 psi during a full boost run.

Realizing that I hadn't changed my fuel filter in a while, I ordered a new one and hoped that would fix it. That did make a difference, as after the filter swap, the AFRs in boost were so rich that it would cut out as soon as it got into boost a little. So, I cleaned the AFRs back to about where they need to be.

So, I did another test tonight and the data log shows that fuel pressure is STILL fluctuating at high boost. I can think of several things I need to check, but all of them will require dropping the fuel tank, which means I need to get my broken DD back on the road so I can put this thing up on jack stands and figure out what's going on.

[s14fiend]

Seriously, your the only one that posts in this place anymore......... have you tried any of the newer systems ? Do you only do NISMOtronic or can you tune something for me on another platform? Do you tune for the public?

[adamky]

Man I love this build, you have me almost convinced to go turbo Ka over a v8 swap (for a number of reasons, mainly it's my daily) but also considering this vacuum setup for my Evo. I rebuilt that engine about 2 years ago and has about 12k miles on it I think and now Cyl 3 is lower compression by about 40 psi than the other 3, I wonder if I could get that back with vacuum, or if nothing else, save it from doing that again after another rebuild.

I'm also very interested in the zinc plating you've done. Seems like anyone could do that with a little knowledge and the results are awesome.
Either way thanks for making this thread and letting me learn from you!
Good to see another ky guy on the forums

I mean, it couldn't hurt to try, but I kinda doubt a crankcase vacuum setup would help the cylinder with lower compression. But, this system offers nothing but benefits for any motor. I will undoubtedly put a similar setup on any future performance vehicles that I own.

The zinc plating is definitely something anyone could learn. But its also something where a great attention to detail will make a huge difference. Thank you for reading my thread and replying.

Seriously, your the only one that posts in this place anymore......... have you tried any of the newer systems ? Do you only do NISMOtronic or can you tune something for me on another platform? Do you tune for the public?

I know. Its sad what has happened to online forums.

I am only familiar with Nistune and Nismotronic. I have never messed with anything else.

[superDorifto]

My return is immenent, lol. I could update my thread with info from my various Dsms and my turbo frs.

I just didn't think anyone cared cuz they're not ka powered.

On the hunt for new internals to rebuild my datsun as well.

[nelson240sx]

I'm glad you still post Adam, I usually stop by the forum once a month to see what everyone's up to. Love that the S14 is or at least was your daily before the fueling issues. I think itll be a simply fix for your fuel fluctuations, maybe a split line that connects the FP to the sending unit on the tank.

superDorifto
I personally dont care what builds people post. Some of the best car builders/tuners i know are from this forum. Reguardless of what they are building its always a good crowd to ask questions or say hi. So you get my vote for updating your thread with FRS and DSM builds, haha

I'm currently working on a few things for a local kid, he put a gt35 i think on his s14. Doing a few odds and ends then installing and getting a base tune with a MS PNP. Maybe I'll make a little build thread/video of the car when its done later this week.

[adamky]

Something I found very odd was that when I connected the flex fuel sensor to the BOB and enabled flex fuel in the settings, I see 0.0V on the Data window. However, all 4 of the ADC inputs show the exact same voltage which hovers around 2.0-2.3V. But the thing is, the flex fuel wire is literally the only thing connected to the BOB right now. I'm not using the ground or 5V input or anything. There's just the one wire going to the flex fuel input. If it does it again tomorrow, I'll try and get it on video.

If you have ADC inputs unconnected with no pull-down resister in the design when you enable the ADC circuits you will get a floating voltage like that. I might be interpreting what you are saying incorrectly but if you put a meter to the pin and ground you will get 100K-1Mohm if there is a pull down on the board (or the same if there is a pull-up to 5v power).

Worse case is you have a, intermittent break in the wire (an open) and then the analog will momentarily read 2.3v. Maybe you are running fuel with no ethanol and it should read 0 or 5v depending on the logic. You might push way too far into the ethanol timing map and detonate.

It's better to have it designed in a fail safe way where without the pin connected the reading puts you 100% into your gas map.

Just looking back through this thread and I realized that I totally glossed over the point you were trying to make. Duh. I see what you are saying now.

So, the question is, what type of resistors would I need to use, and how difficult would it be to add them? Any thoughts on that?? I am NOT an electrical expert and I don't know how I would go about figuring this out.

[R34SR]

I haven't logged in here in a long ass time, but like others have said....very nice to see something different being done.

I myself am finally getting around to working on my 240 now that I'm unemployed

[p00t]

Most of the sensor circuits like the MAF on our cars has 100 kohm pull down or up which is good to use. Basically you want to pull the ADC line down enough so it is 0v reading. But you dont pull/push so strong that it changes the signal. So if you used 100 ohm for example your sensor might only be able to do 0.1v or something like that when it was trying to send 5v.

Doing some reading back of my own through your post IDK if we are talking about the same thing:
1. If you are saying the ADCs when unconnected are at 2.3v that 100% makes sense.
2. If they are all reading 2.3v when the sensor is connected to one of them... Then I don't think we are aligned with what we are talking about. One should agree with the sensor voltage in that case. Only thing that might make that happen is a very bad voltage offset (poor ground).

Funny I also started messing with brushless motors for a project. Did you use the kV rating to spec out that motor? 13v X 1600 -> ~20k rpm pump?

[adamky]

I'm glad you still post Adam, I usually stop by the forum once a month to see what everyone's up to. Love that the S14 is or at least was your daily before the fueling issues. I think itll be a simply fix for your fuel fluctuations, maybe a split line that connects the FP to the sending unit on the tank.

Thanks man. I've always enjoyed your projects on here and YouTube.

I really think my fuel pump issue is that I've simply maxed out my one Walbro 450. As soon as I can afford it, I'm gonna install 2 new Walbro 450s, with one being constantly on, and the other activated by a 5 psi Hobbs switch connected to the intake manifold vacuum distribution block.

Funny I also started messing with brushless motors for a project. Did you use the kV rating to spec out that motor? 13v X 1600 -> ~20k rpm pump?

Yes, but I actually had to guess at what I would need. I'm not enough of a physics wiz to know how each motor would do while under a heavy load/vacuum. If this motor was spinning a propeller of a given size/pitch, it wouldn't be so hard to calculate the load and max RPM. But this isn't anything that's been tested before.. I just had to guess. So I ended up purchasing 2 motors with different KVs. I think the motor I tried first was around 940 or 950KV, and it just didn't do the trick. It only pulled like 5.5" inHg on my test bench at max RPM, which is barely any more than the brushed motor could pull. The second motor I tried was the 1600KV that I am currently using, and it works great.

The main thing that needs to match is the motor shaft size, which in the case of these pumps is 5mm. That's pretty big for a motor. So, I only searched for motors with a 5mm shaft on Hobby King.com. And that's how I ended up with the two that I tried.

[p00t]

Cool. I now have a spare 3655 with 4300kv motor with a 5mm shaft if you ever want to shoot for full vacuum

[adamky]

Lol, wow. What is your brushless project all about?

Brushless motors kick a55 and are soooo much more efficient than brushed motors. If I had the time and money, I'd upgrade to brushless cooling fan motors and a brushless fuel pump.

Typically, a higher KV will spin to a higher RPM, but will have less low end torque. So it's actually possible that using too high of a KV could actually be counter-productive and result in little or no increase in vacuum.