New Project: Mild build

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cleantune
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Finally stopped slacking on getting the e-brake anchor bolts tight; received some help holding the screw driver in place on the other side :]

Drum brakes installed! Grease EVeRyWheRe. Springs are kinda fruity:
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Just used the springs out of the rebuild kit; the other included hardware seemed weaker (smaller and thinner) and the slot on the 1/4-turn flathead pins did not line up with its back end "hook"- the OEM ones did, so it was just much easier to line the OEM pins up with the slot on the e-brake backing plate.

Still trying to reach a resolution for the unknown torque specs on the brake calipers... so frustrating. So far, found out that torque specs, simulations, standards tables, math equations and other methods do not always hold true (particularly surprising about the accepted standards tables); there are just a crazy amount of "realworld" variables that ruins them, such as climate, corrosion, and imperfect surfaces among other factors. Read recently someone did a similar caliper rebuild using antiseize on the bolts and hand-tight :icon-eek:...would not recommend.


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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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So recently, when ever I've had some free time I've been looking into this whole z32 aluminum brake caliper rebuild project (that still isn't finished yet, hah). Ugh... such a long process. For those of you who don't know, or have not read through this whole thread, this one quote pretty much sums up how I've been approaching projects recently: "If there was a two piece puzzle with more than one way to assemble the pieces, best believe that I would have a "laundry list" of pros and cons for all the outcomes", haha.

I found some really important details that I really wanted to share about rebuild projects like this. First some pics though:

Caliper fronts and backs:
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The base color is a reddish orange and then an obnoxious neon yellow was sprayed on top (I'll try to some post pics of these separate colors in another post).

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The person who powdercoated these is a really great guy, who always treats his customers really well and who doesn't miss any details outlined by the customer- no matter how small or insignificant that detail may be, he makes sure that the coating meets and surpasses the customers expectations (please feel free to PM if you'd like more info).

I was looking for a color somewhere between orange and yellow and this pretty much did just that. Most of the time they look like the color in the pics (almost a light tangerine orange), but it really depends on the lighting- in the shadows they are more red-orange and in direct sunlight the yellow is more pronounced.... but the color is currently pretty unimportant, considering the main rebuild challenges I'll detail a little later.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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I forget if I mentioned this or not, but my original plan was to just put new piston seals and dust boots in these calipers and install them how they were (because of the FSM's disclaimer). Then I thought thought about wire-wheeling them and leaving them bare aluminum or just painting them black with a rattle can. When I found those loose bridge bolts though, I figured if they had to be split to ensure seal integrity, I did not want to split these again and since powder coating requires splitting to remove the center "o" ring seals- might as well.

So onto the caliper rebuild challenge list:

1. Nissan FSM
-says DO NOT remove the "bridge bolts" holding the two halves of the caliper together for any reason- because the pistons, piston seals and dust boots can all be replaced without splitting the calipers.
-So no torque spec for the bolts

2. Caliper materials and construction
-Steel, zinc plated, M10x1.25 flanged bolts go through one side of the caliper into treads on the other caliper half to complete the bolted joint
-there are no "registration keys", sometimes used in fiberglass molds to ensure the halves line up correctly before they are bolted together; only the bolts to help align the two halves
-"Thread-galvanizing" can occur between the aluminum and steel over time, which causes the aluminum to partially bond with the steel in a way that the aluminum threads can be damaged when removing the steel bolt. This is a somewhat common occurrence with the threaded aluminum mounting holes and steel mounting bolts on STI brembo calipers (and can occur with their bridge bolts as well).

3. Center seals
-The front and rear caliper surfaces are designed differently on the front and rear calipers, which may not be a problem but it would be an inconsistency that could pose a problem in the assembly process, considering both the front and rear calipers each have 2 seals with 4 bolts, one bolt on either side of each seal.

....

So as mentioned earlier, torque spec is not the best indicator of preload, so still not sure what to do about this, but I do plan on using a thread locker to limit bolt loosening due to vibration. The plan is to get the bolts tight and the seals fully compressed between the two halves.

I cut some grooves perpendicular to the threads of some spare bolts to use as thread cleaners (should prob pick up a tap set). Did this for the mounting holes first, which by the way are "steel inserts" for Z32 aluminum calipers). Then did this for the bridge bolt holes. This is what came out of the caliper (similar results for other calipers):

Caliper with 4 piles of debris:
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The piles appeared to contain tiny metallic pieces, which turned out to be ferrous metal (tested with a magnet). Still not sure what this was; maybe debris from blasting during powdercoating prep work?

Checked threads; some minor thread defects although it is really difficult to tell the real condition of the threads at this level of detail:
Thread vertical:
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thread horizontal:
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Then a REALLY BIG CONCERN arose when I had mentioned the powder coating to some people, who attend and participate in track events (time attack, HPDE, etc). I did not want to have the under side of the bolt head or the caliper surface that the bolt head touches to be coated because it would slightly decrease the amount of thread engagement, but I had figured it was alright to do because it would not be that much to make a huge difference....there was an unforeseen problem with this though that someone had pointed out and others had agreed with.

***PLEASE READ the following before powder coating calipers or any other parts that require a tight seal***
VVVVVVVVVVVV

Cured powder melts and flows around 250ºF; roughly speaking. Caliper center seals (to seal around brake fluid passages that pass from one caliper half to the other caliper half) depend on a tight seal. With normal street driving the calipers will most likely not reach super high temps (and I have heard and seen pictures of calipers with powder coat under the bolt head surfacees, BUT from what I'm told with Track driving, the calipers will definitely reach temps hot enough to cause the powdercoat to melt and flow.

So while the bolts and threads may be tight and kept from spinning with thread locker or even safety wire- once the brakes are up to temp the powder coat is allowed to melt and flow out from underneath the bolt head, leaving a tiny void. Since there are no threads on the bolt head side of the caliper, this half is allowed to slide on the bolt shaft just enough to break the center seals and release brake fluid. :icon-eek:

The story I was told happened at the first track day event that this guy attended with his powdercoated calipers (his also had powdercoat underneath the bolt heads). The bolts lost their preload and the center seals blew out the first time they got hot! The guy telling the story was there to witness the whole thing. He said the guy was lucky to make it back to the pits without killing himself. The brake fluid ruined the powder on the caliper, sprayed brake fluid all over the inside of the wheel, and stripped the paint off his wheel and fender.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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...so the bolt heads sitting flat on the caliper's surface doesn't matter, the powdercoating still has the potential to flow out from under the head and leave enough of a void to break the center brake fluid seals; and obviously the thicker the coating the larger the potential void.

Started removing the coating on the underside of the bolt heads; one one the left had a light coat so a craft razor, sand paper and brake cleaner worked well, the other bolt's coats were too thick to efficiently remove with a razor, so I'm planning on just using "Aircraft Paint Stripper" on the rest of the bolts:

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The caliper surfaces will need to be addressed as well. The following picture shows an unsuccessful attempt to trace the bolt head with a razor and then remove the coating with it- which with how difficult these coats are to remove, I think it speaks volumes for how well prepped these brakes were right before they were powdercoated:

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^Still trying to figure out a way to remove the powdercoat off of the caliper surface, without wrecking the powdercoat around it or damaging the aluminum underneath. I tried a serrated-bottomed flange bolt, but I think it may need to be either sharper or more abrasive. Please let my know if you have any suggestions.

Another thing that was noticed, was the seal surfaces are different on the front and rear calipers. Fronts have inset (counterbore) on one side that allows exact fitment the "o"ring, while the other side is completely flat with just the small hole for fluid passage. For the rear calipers, each both halves are counterbored- one side fits the "o"-ring exactly while the other side's counterbore diameter is a bit larger (I'm assuming to help with alighnent) and it is also much shallower. I put the old seal between the two halves to test how much the seal would compress and the halves do "wobble" over the seal, so the seal will compress, but it doesn't look like it will compress THAT much, so I'll have to be sure to make sure the rear halves are as tight as possible, without wrecking anything.

Also noticed the rear seals seem to have some unequally distributed "pitting" on the seal surfaces. The old rear seals had some yellowish/clear crusty substance on both faces as well as the center, while the fronts only had the crusty substance in the center. I'm wondering if this was old brake fluid that leaked around the seals as a result of the pitting or maybe some old sealant? The pitting could be just be the density inconsistency in the cast aluminum part that became evident after machining the seal surfaces. I dunno, I guess lemme know what you guys think:

half pitted:
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all pitted:
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Thought about using an epoxy to correct the surface imperfections, but if it didn't bind well and broke off, that would not be good. Then I thought maybe a silicone based high temp grease, but the particular one I was planning on using was tested by someone on another forum and it didn't stand up to half temp it claimed to (verified with an oven test).
It is very minor (I think), maybe something that truely wont melt or drip at high temps- like pure silicone grease for "O"-rings?

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by adamky »

Wow, what a mess this little project has turned into. That sucks to find all of that out AFTER the powder coating, but I guess it's better than finding out on the track! I love that color and I hope you can get the coating off where you need to without harming the rest of the finish. Did you contact the guy who did the powder to see if he had any advice for removing it where the bolts need to go?

I have no advice on what to do about the pitting. I saw something on Caswell's site the other day that can be used to repair aluminum (it's some kind of solder), but doing it would require 400* temps which would ruin the powder coating around it. Plus, you might need to machine the surface flat afterwards.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Thanks! :mrgreen:

Yeah, seriously, big fn' mess...so much for just bolting everything together... and yes I agree, its much better to find out now before anything leaves the garage. Definitely going to test these A LOT before the car is even put on the ground.

I was looking into that Caswell plating kit we were talking about before for these bolts because one of them was stripped to bare metal with a bead blaster, when testing methods for powder coat removal. Thought since these were originally zinc coated it would be good to do because rust deterioration underneath the bolt head could potentially lead to the same problem the hot temps and powder coat does underneath the bolt head. .

I did ask the guy about removing the powder coating and he mentioned sanding it off with I think it was 220 or 120, but nothing specific to target just the under bolt areas. Maybe a forstner bit? but they're like $10 for one bit:
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That Caswell stuff sounds really cool. There was some guy redoing an aluminum spindle for a yacht (from random google search) and he used an epoxy with aluminum powder in it, put it on like spackle and then remachined it on a lathe like normal aluminum; loctite makes a product similar to this, but I don't think its high temp. The pitting is so tiny too. Starting to lean towards grease, but still not 100% sold on this; although, it may be better than nothing?
... hah I dunno.

I was reading about another guy's test he did with an oven to test temp tolerances of pure silicone grease VS silicone-based/ grease containing silicone (one "dab" of each in an aluminum foil cup; he did this for his motorcyle brake pad shims- he wanted something that wasn't going to melt and seep into his pads). Despite the manufacturer's claims of not melting at +600ºF the silicone based grease was a brown puddle around 250ºF and by 500ºF (his oven's max) it had almost completely evaporated- the pure silicone grease on the other hand looked shiny, but had not melted yet.

This was the stuff he had success with at high temps (Dow Corning High Vacuum grease):
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After reading about this I went ordered some of this stuff after looking at the z32 FSM. In the FSM they called for "poly butyl cuprysil" grease or silicone-based grease for pad shims and rubber grease for the piston seals. Please feel free to talk some sense into me if I'm way off, but my thinking was silicone-based grease, so silicone is okay to use and for rubber grease, silicone grease will not harm rubber and is commonly used on "o" rings in machinery.


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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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So I forget if I had mentioned this here or not, but I had emailed a few companies that make their calipers this way (like aluminum z32 calipers). I sent my "through-bolt" design idea to them and they said this would not be sufficient enough to keep the center seals aligned and could cause a break in these seals as a result; tolerances would have to be super tight too. Some fiberglass molds have "registration marks" or "keys" to help align the halves of the mold; however there is nothing like this on these calipers. The company said that instead, the threaded bolt design (bolt through one caliper half and threaded into the other half; how the z32 calipers are) helps to align the center seals and keep everything straight.

After looking into “forstner bits”, (used to counterbore wood and about $10 per bit) I went back into Home Depot Motorsports to pick up a 2 pack of serrated bottomed M10 flange bolts (suggested by another forum member). The bolts did start to take off the neon yellow top coat, but were not digging in enough to lift off anything substantial, so this was solved with a dremel cutoff wheel.


The "Destroyer bolt" haha:

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A flange bolt was definitely what was needed though, because in addition to having a serrated shape to start with, the bolt head helped to keep both downward pressure and rotation needed to strip off the powdercoat. I just used a socket wrench to pin the bolt; a drill with a socket attachment probably would have been easier, but I wanted to make sure I wasn’t damaging the surface as the bolt head was being turned. Had to make some adjustments to the “blades” on the bolt to get the underside to cut more parallel to the caliper surface- the uneven surface contact at first is shown in the pic below.

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The “destroyer” bolt did take a small amount of aluminum off , which can be observed from the presence of a small lip toward the edge of the cleaned metal:
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I’d like to think that I leveled the surfaces some; however there was some surface irregularity afterwards:
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Tried using the unmodified, serrated, flange bolt to help smooth out the surface, but not sure how much it really helped.
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*edit: I recently smoothed these out- cut out eight 220 grit sand paper washers a tiny bit larger in diameter than the outer diameter of the flange on the bolt and used the regular, "unmodded", serrated flange bolt and a socket wrench to smooth everything out.

I’m thinking I may have to try to find another M10 flange bolt with a slightly larger diameter head because the OEM bridge bolts heads appear to be just slightly larger. It was rubbing some of the yellow top coat off around the outside of the bolt holes. *edit: did this too, just cut the bolt a little less aggressive than the last one and then smoothed everything out using the sand paper washers (again, like half a mm larger in diameter than the bolt head) and an OEM flange bolt.

Also started stripping the bolt heads with Aircraft Paint Stripper *edit: finished stripping all the powdercoat off of the bolts and washers the other day:

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So before the “destroyer bolt”, sandpaper and paint stripper, we had tried using a fine grain glass bead using a blaster (blast-out-of-bag setup), didn’t work too well; maybe dulled the surface of the powdercoat, if that. The rougher grit glass bead did work to take off the powder coat, but was not as precise as I thought it would be- the side of the bolt head I wasn’t aiming for was damaged from glass bead ricochet.

I only tried it on one bolt head and one of the mounting locations on the caliper, then stopped. This is glass beaded bolt head on the left and stripped on right:

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by adamky »

You're getting there man. That serrated bolt was a great idea. I would have never thought of that. Are the caliper bolts stainless steel?
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Thanks man :]

I'm not sure what the bolts are made of, but they are magnetic, so some kind of steel or other ferrous metal.

Decided to constructively procrastinate on the brakes and take care of some surface rust on the front subframe around a repair. Back before the power steering pump leak was fixed, some power steering had leaked on this part of the subframe and it had just been sitting there. Used brake cleaner, coarse emery cloth, 800 grit sandpaper, a wire brush, scotchbrite pad, and some zinc-rich paint (Eastwood inner frame rail coating paint). Did this for both sides and around the attachment pints for the tension rods, finished with 2 coats of oil resistant high temp black paint- nothing too crazy:

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by adamky »

I hate rust sooo much. Every time I get underneath my car, I see more of it.

Back to the caliper bolts, the issue that you're dealing with made me realize what probably caused all of my engine accessory bracket bolts to get loose. A few even fell out and are nowhere to be found. When I painted the block several years ago, I didn't mask the bolts holes, so there was paint on the surfaces as well as down in the threads. Im sure over time the paint softened up due to heat.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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yeah, me too. That Eastwood paint works pretty well for stuff like this; zinc-rich, thin enough to seep into tiny seams/ crevices, it can be used on bare metal (like a primer), and its a rust encapsulator. It comes with an "atomizing flexible straw", but for accessible areas it works better with the normal spray cap.

Its good to hear that I'm not the only one benefiting from these brake-related headaches, haha.
Yeah, I'd say its a good possibility that the paint under the bolt heads could have caused the bolts to loosen up as you had mentioned. I suppose paint or any other non-metallic coating could be prone to melting, drying, or flaking off, leaving enough of a void in a critical joint for the bolt to loosen up.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Making progress. I was unsure what to do with the caliper hardware, but I definitely did not want the brake hardware rusting and possibly causing a similar situation to the "melting powdercoat". I keep forgetting that only one side of the caliper is threaded, so even if the bolt doesn't spin, any deterioration of material under the bolt head will allow the un-threaded caliper half to slide on the bolt, possibly enough to break the center seals.

So... I caved and had the bolts plated and baked by a company. The baking was just an extra precaution to remove any trapped hydrogen which could cause "hydrogen embrittlement". It was kind of a last minute decision, so I didn't prep the bolts much as I should've after removing the powdercoat. They didn't come out too bad, but Adam, I must say your plated hardware came out much better than mine :D :

Zinc plated and yellow/gold chromated top:
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Zinc plated and yellow/gold chromated threads:
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Comparison of 2 OEM plated bolts (on left) to two caliper plated bolts:
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Comparison close up (same orientation as pic above):
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Residual Powdercoat:
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Is this what happens when the parts are not fully clean?:
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...these shims were only briefly cleaned with brake cleaner, so my guess is poor surface adhesion and then maybe the baking did something too?

I'm currently still looking into the best way to fasten the caliper halves together. I heard back from a few companies I sent emails out to (about how to reassemble this type of caliper) and I'm not sure if I mentioned this or not, but one company got back to me about the "bolt-through" design I had sent them. They said that the threading on the one caliper half is needed not only to hold the halves together, but it also helps to align/ center the middle seals; without the threading on the one side of the caliper the seals may not line up properly and a leak could result -which kind of makes sense because there aren't any registration marks or "keys" to help align the two caliper halves. Without the bolts the two halves can almost completely freely slide each other.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by adamky »

I have read a little about hydrogen embrittlement. However, exactly how long to bake parts or what temp to bake them at seems to vary depending on who you ask. And since it's something that happens at a molecular level, I'm not sure how I would even know that the baking had worked unless I sent one of the bolts off for some type of stress testing. This was one of the reasons that I decided not to re-plate my trans adapter bolts after they didn't turn out as well as I would have liked. I need to do more research on it.

The plating coming off so easily on the clips was most likely due to poor prep work. It could also be due to them using too high of current for the plating. I don't think that the baking could have done that. Since they failed to clean the powder coating off of a couple of bolts, I'm betting it was poor prep work on their part.

Do you mind sharing what they charged you? I've never had anything professionally plated and am just curious what's a typical price for it.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

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Had a chance to check out fitment of newly plated hardware. It was tight, as expected; had to re-clean some of the threads with a different M10 bolt with grooves cut length-wise into the threads. After looking at the pitted seal surfaces, I tried to match up less pitted with more pitted halves for front and rear- since my original caliper I.D. labels (loop of thin wire on each half of one front and one rear caliper) were lost during the powdercoating process.

Labels:
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Exploring possibility of safety wire, visualizing paths with twine; seems like the bleeder valve will most likely be in the way on the fronts (pictured below) and definitely the bleeder valve on the rears (not pictured).

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The only reason I’ve considered this is because with how tight the tolerances are and how little the seals compress; these bolts absolutely cannot move at all or the braking system could be compromised.

I recently picked up a “Nutholer”, made by Moto D Racing from Amazon. It has a hole guide for use with 1/16” cobalt drill bits. Its difficult to tell from the picture, but it helps guide the bit through the corner of the bolt head or nut (max=.71”, 18mm across flats; min=above M6 for corner drilling nuts, so hole doesn’t go into threads) and unlike some other safety wire jigs, it seems like it will accommodate flanged bolts and nuts too.

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Figured less material to drill through, less wear/ broken bits, faster drilling and a more structurally sound bolt head (if this last thing even matters for bolts with a very low torque load on them).

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by p00t »

Man talk about trials and tribulations. Now you are like many of us, you can never let your car go because of the time you've put into it. Some neat tricks and DIY gizmos in this thread.

I cheated with my z32 brake conversion... I bought re-mfg ones and ate the core cost. Painted them with the off the shelf caliper paint and called it good.

Did you wind up rebuilding all of the rear e-brake drum hardware? I used centric stuff and I am wondering if the diameter of the shoes is too small for the drum. They hold well but the car can rock a little with them engaged, almost like an automatic in park without the e-brake on. I wonder if you will experience the same symptom.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Thanks!
p00t wrote:I cheated with my z32 brake conversion... I bought re-mfg ones and ate the core cost. Painted them with the off the shelf caliper paint and called it good.
...yea, this is what I should've done too....actually might still do this if things don't work out.
p00t wrote:Did you wind up rebuilding all of the rear e-brake drum hardware? I used centric stuff and I am wondering if the diameter of the shoes is too small for the drum. They hold well but the car can rock a little with them engaged, almost like an automatic in park without the e-brake on. I wonder if you will experience the same symptom.
I think I used the same Centric rebuild kit. I replaced some of the hardware, but not all of it; only the springs, wave washer and lock "c" clip (to remount the lever arm on the new shoes) that came with the rebuild kit. The other OEM hardware, including the "adjuster" in between the shoes at the bottom and "shoe spring retaining hardware" were reused- it prob doesn't matter too much, but the OEM material seemed a little thicker and tolerances seemed a little tighter on these.

The shoes in the picture are Centric (part# 111.08960) and if I remember correctly, they were the same size. Maybe the "rocking" is just because of the drum's design? -it kind of looks like it would because the shoes seem to lean in the same direction when the ebrake cable is pulled. I haven't had a chance to try them out, but if I ever get everything back together I'll let you know.

Hey, when you installed your Z32 e-brakes did you make a third mounting bracket (x2) to attach each cable to the rear subframe? or did you just bolt it in the two locations (at "y" junction and at the end of each cable on each hub)?


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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by p00t »

I secured them crudely:

I took two 5" sections of coolant hose which ID is just bigger than the OD of the cable sheath, split them lengthwise and wrapped each around the cable where it crossed near the subframe. Then I used big hose clamps (4-5" dia.) to secure each cable to the sub-frame. The hose is there to keep the clamp from digging into the cable sheath.

Brackets would be nice if you have the time! You will need to tack some sort of mini bracket to the subframe to bolt the lines to.

I used the 2+2 z32 lines and I couldn't route them near the stock attachment points.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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that sounds like a great solution; thats pretty much what I meant by "brackets"- just a metal loop with a hole in the end to attach it to the subframe (two holes on either end of flat metal bar, looped around hose so that the two holes align).

I figured the OEM ebrake cable was bolted in two places ( y junction towards front and the subframe), so two bolted places in this case (one at y junction and one on the plate that supports ebrake shoe attachment) would be enough. I've read in a tutorial for an s15, that it is not totally necessary to do a third mount, but I'm not sure how much I trust this source and it seems like it would be a great idea to be redundant in safety equipment.

I think tonight I'll try to reroute the cables from their current location (in back of the tension rod subframe protrusion; OEM cable route) to through the rectangular hole of the tension rod subframe protrusion; and try to do something similar for a third attachment on the subframe.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by p00t »

The stock brackets are really flimsy. They are really only there to prevent the cables from banging around. They don't provide any benefit function-wise to the e-brake. It's up to you. If it's too difficult to do for some reason I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Thanks, I'll keep this in mind.

The top of the swaybar endlink (bushing, washer, nut and some threads), that are on top of the rear control arm, are currently touching the Z32 ebrake cable. So I'm thinking I'm going to try to route the cable differently (like I mentioned; still haven't done this yet). I was wondering if the cable would move at all when the ebrake is pulled? I would imagine it would straighten some under high tension...maybe?

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Finally, some more progress late last night. I’m so hyped this worked!

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Benchtop drill press: Craftsman 10"; 3.2 AMP; 1/2hp @3150 RPM
Bits: 1/16" cobalt split point drill bits (OEM tools [http://www.amazon.com/16-Inch-Cobalt-Dr ... B007ITJX8G])
jig: "Nutholer" mentioned in earlier post
Vise Grip: Irwin 9"/225mm
Lubricant: WD40

The test bolt was 8.8 Grade and test piece of safety wire, pictured above, was 0.032" Malin stainless steel. I just lowered the bit into the jig until some pressure was felt and then just "pecked" at it (like instructions said), making sure to fully remove the bit from the jig to pull out material.

Also, I setup a little experiment to figure out if DOT 3+4 compatible brake fluid will work with the pure silicone grease that I’m planning on using on the center “o” ring seals between the caliper halves- to help fill in the small pinhole “pitting” on the caliper seal surfaces. Its nothing too crazy, just a small piece of aluminum foil (about 5”x5”) with each side folded up 90º. On the flat foil surface a few “silicone test structures” were formed to make sure the silicone will not dissolve into or cause any unwanted changes to either substance. Test structures included:

- a small ring of silicone (~5mm inner diameter; like a silicone volcano with brake fluid in the middle ) to make sure the brake fluid would not consume any significant amount of silicone, which would be noted as a leak outside of the silicone ring
- a small rounded “dab” of silicone with an indent on top for brake fluid- again would be looking for brake fluid to escape on to the surrounding foil
- a small “wipe” of silicone with some exaggerated surface “texture” –would be looking for the brake fluid to smooth out the texture.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

I finally decided to make some moves on these calipers and proceed with the prep work required for the safetywire application. I think I mentioned this before, but...all the bolt heads were labeled with corresponding labels on the caliper halves: P1, P2, P3, P4 for passenger side; D1, D2, D3, D4 for driver side (f+r used different type of bolts).

Since the safetywire drilling jig drilled just one corner (and only one corner was needed for the application), the bolts were all tightened “hand-tight” with a socket wrench (tightened until they stopped; still not sure if I want to tighten anymore than this with the aluminum threads). Then using a piece of safetywire, folded in half and twisted (how it would be in between the bolts), I marked out (with a sharpie) which safetywire attachment locations I thought would work best- planning is important at this stage, unless one really likes drilling :mrgreen: .

*all the pics here are just of the fastening mock up. I just wanted to figure out how everything would sit- so this is just a rough install. There are “rules” for proper safetywiring, which I’ll try to summarize if I decide to secure the bolts this way; mainly just details like how many twists should be in “x” number of centimeters.

The front caliper bolt head pairs were on the same “plane”/ elevation and with some careful planning the safetywire would clear the brake bleeder valve, so these were focused on first.

Driver Side Front:
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Note: pic below the wire twist should end at the bolt without gaps
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Passenger Side Front (a little closer to the bleeder valve, but clears):
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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I forgot to mention how the different planes/elevations of bolts could be a problem. For those are not familiar with safetywire fastening, the whole “mechanism” that makes safetywire work is how it not only holds pairs (or multiple bolts in series) in place, but also how its attachment facilitates the tightening of the other adjacent bolt(s) if one bolt loosens.

So in order for this “tightening if loosening” effect to happen the wire needs to stay on the “tightening direction” of the bolt or nut (right or left thread; just has to be on tightening side). If there is too much of a height difference between the bolts the wire could slip over the head of one or more bolts- making the safety wire loose its leverage. At this point both bolts could loosen.

Drilled out rear bridge bolts. D3 and P3 (higher elevation than corresponding D4 and P4) were drilled a little lower to help reduce the angle of the safetywire path; more horizontal path, less likely for wire to slip over the head of the lower elevation bolt:
Image

The rear calipers proved to be a bit more of a challenge than the fronts. In addition to the bolts being at different elevations, the bleeder valves were directly in the path of the safetywire. After numerous sketches and a cardboard and thread model with some tweaks after the anchor application on the caliper, this is what I came up with:

Twine for pathway visualization:
Image

The height difference was almost unavoidable with this setup, so a conscious effort was made to direct the safetywire in long paths to the anchor (with fixed elevations-longer, further paths would yield paths that are less steep than closer, shorter paths).

After many different possible anchor solutions, I decided that a stainless steel washer would be the simplest and most rigid in this particular case. I know the washer anchor can spin, but I’m hoping that by using continuous piece of safetywire, it will negate some of this washer rotation.

Anchor attachment model; again wire should be tighter around washer for actual application:
Image

The washer’s center hole was drilled out for the OEM brake line bracket bolt (not sure what size this is because I used a drill at first, but then found a dremel to be more effective; the hole was also offset a bit to ensure clearance for the safetywire through the two 1/16” holes.

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The next step is to disassemble these a third time and clean everything for assembly. The pure silicone grease seemed to be compatible with the DOT3/4 brake fluid- no apparent mixing of the two substances. There was a strange “light pink” puddle next the “silicone grease/ brake fluid volcano, but nowhere else; so I’m assuming a small bit of red something contaminated that spot?

I just have to read the instructions on the loctite primer and decide what to torque these caliper bridge bolts to- even if it’s just hand tight, I want to make sure there is somewhat equal pressure across both of the internal seals.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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……aaaaannnd….. back to procrastinating on the brakes, hah.

The ebrake cables were really close to the swaybar end link on top of the rear control arms, so to help prevent the cable from possibly hanging up on the endlink top, I thought I’d try an alternate route for the cables:

Image

…which seemed to work length-wise. The cable was a little closer to the gas tank support band though. So, the third ebrake cable brackets were finally made to help pull the cable away from the gas tank band. Brackets were made out of some aluminum flat stock; an extended socket was used to help hold the round shape:

Image

They fit pretty well. The bracket had some “spring” to it, so the lock washers were discarded in favor of a regular washer, then they were attached with just an extended length 10mm bolt in OEM location:

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After examining fitment, I’m not sure these brackets will work. The gap between the subframe, ebrake cable and gas tank band is very small and the subframe still needs to be raised up and tightened in place.
*luckily, only worked on one side tonight

To recap:
- decided to reroute cables and had to remove the “almost-imposible-to-install” (and almost just as difficult to remove) ebrake shoe setup
- might move ebrake cable back to original location
- and made brackets that may not be used

All this work was not a total waste though. I’ve wanted to make these brackets for a while and now that I know they may not work, I don’t feel as bad not including them.

I plan on checking clearances tomorrow with just the ebrake cable rerouted through the subframe (no bracket). If there is more room/play in the driver side ebrake route (old route behind subframe arm; OEM ebrake route), I’ll just switch the cable back.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by adamky »

So, I guess the issue with just routing the safety wire around the bleeder on the rears could put to much stress on it and snap it off?

I'll be watching this thread as I plan to use safety wire on my WG line banjo bolts, and possibly on my exhaust manifold and downpipe bolts. I've never used it before so this is all new to me.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

adamky wrote:So, I guess the issue with just routing the safety wire around the bleeder on the rears could put to much stress on it and snap it off?
***edit: sry, I'm not sure I read that question correctly the first time, so to answer this question: yes, the concern with the safety wire touching the bleeder screw would be extra stress put on that side of the bleeder and a problem for two main reasons:
1. loosening/ removing the bleeder screw
2. while the tension of the wire may not be enough to snap the bleeder off, the extra stress on that one side could open up the opportunity for a leak

I'm going to try to smooth all the sharp edges on the holes with a round file when I disassemble them, maybe tapering the holes a bit on the washer anchor too to minimize the possibility of nicking the wire.
*edit: not entirely sure if I'm going to do this yet- its kind of weird, but the "sharp" edge is contoured to the shape of the wire (compared to a straight edge, where pressure would be focused at one point). So even though this contoured edge sharp, the stress is distributed more evenly on the edge

I just used the standard stainless steel safetywire, but if you're interested, there are some options of safetywire for high temp applications too, which include Iconel (above 700ºF) and Monel (above 2000ºF). The Iconel also comes in an "oxidized" form; I'm sure there is a reason for it, just not sure what it is, hah.

------

...on a different subject, finally finished rerouting ebrake cables. I ditched the third bracket idea and decided to go with the reroute not only because it routed the cables around the endlinks, but also because it seemed like a "safer" solution.

With the way it was routed behind the subframe before (and without a bracket like the OEM ebrake cables) the cable would be rubbing up and down the pinchwelded edge of the subframe with the rear suspension travel. Now with the new route, the cable is shielded from the metal with a grommet (pic in last post) and the "pivot" point of the cable seems to be further forward, localized at the point at which it goes through the grommet- meaning the cable should move a little more freely without constant rubbing on any metal edges.

Two of the 2+2 300zx cables that had came with the used ebrake hardware seemed to have worn through the outermost rubber shielding and I'm thinking it may be because of how the cables were riding on the lower control arms.

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Okay so after swapping over the grommets from the z32 cables and rerouting, they seem to clear the top of the endlink much better (that blurry orange thing in the pic below). I took that "third" bracket off, because it seemed to be pulling the cable towards the gas tank strap. With the "third" bracket off, there should be more room for the cable to be moved into a non-pinching position, once the subframe is fully installed.

*edit [pic of cable going through the subframe w/ grommet was a repost]

...oh yea, had to fully disassemble and regrease the braking shoe assembly in order to reroute the lines too. Such a pain, but had to do this in order to have better access to where the cable attaches to the lever, behind one of the brake shoes.
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Finally got back into the hub project (shown earlier in this thread) and started getting into some front suspension work. These knuckles were a pre-buy from GKTech, so some of the problems I have encountered with these may have already been solved- just something to keep in mind if anyone else is considering using knuckles; the mods done on these were not too big of a deal anyways.

First, the new hubs would not fit over one of the spindles and the other was really tight; ended up pulling the bearing apart trying to remove the hub and had to use a gear puller to get the bearing shield off of the spindle.

Image



Now before I get flamed and trolled over not pressing the hubs on, I had talked another person with these, who said that he had tried pressing on the hubs and they only went to a certain point. He had said that “I was not about to put the full 13 tons of the press on the assembly, after the hub stopped making progress with increasing load from the press”. Someone he knew had the same problem, but they just found the high spots and sanded them down. Again, this was only found with the pre buys, it may not have even been with all of them, and the hubs may have indeed pressed on.

I found an article online that helped my confidence with this decision a bit: superstreet (Evo brake swap) where they did not need to press the hub off of an OEM spindle:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to ... e-upgrade/
From step #5: “…and gawk in amazement if the hub pulls free as easily as ours did; you’ll probably need a hub puller.”

Front hubs installed after sanding with WD-40 and emery paper sanding tubes (little, by little checking the fit often). They fit very snug on the spindles; there is no noticeable movement after the axle nut was lightly screwed on. I’m scared though….hopefully I did’t **** them up; I'll know for sure once its back on the ground. As I'm typing this I'm wondering how much of the new OEM hubs are designed to bend/ form around the hub -I'm wondering if new hubs are designed with a bit of loose tolerance between the bearing races and bearings, so that when they are pressed on the inner hub stretches to fill this gap when they are pressed on.....SO SCARED these are not going to work and I'm going to have bearing play because of this decision *sigh :| ...time will tell I guess:
Image

Akerman comparison:
Image

Had to grind off the protruding welds and smooth surface, so that it would slip inside the suspension’s bottom collar. I okayed this with GKTech before proceededing. I was told these welds were only to keep the bolt sleeves in place while the rest of the part was welded together; I figured structurally it was okay to do this as well even if the welds happen to bear some load because of how the suspensions bottom collar wrapped around this piece and through-bolted.

Pic from GKTech’s site:
Image

Smoothed welds frontside:
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Smoothed welds backside:
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detail: Image

repainted:
Image

both bolts went through, it fits!
Image


The caliper mounting "ears" have been rotated downward a bit from the OEM spindle's mounting "ears". Still not sure what the reason for this is (haven't asked GKTech), but a few guesses we came up with include:
•lower center of mass (weight of caliper sits lower, maybe improve handling?)
•more of the top of the rotor exposed (heat rises; more area for heat to escape out of the top)
•calipers/pads closer to fresh air (further out of the wheel well, closer to the ground)

How brake sits on rotor with caliper loosely bolted on (bolts were not fully seated; just a quick mock up to see just how different the mounting "ears" are and to get a good estimate of how centered the caliper would be on the rotor. These are not the best pictures because of the shadows, but the caliper centers well over the rotor:
Image
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Back of knuckle:
Image

»»» Another important thing to note about these is that these hubs DON'T use the washer under the spindle nut; there are no slots on the spindle to fit this.

Image

On later models like the s15, Nissan had stopped using this washer, so to keep with this simpler design GKTech developed their spindles to disclude this washer as well.
*shown on Page 5 of this pdf link:
http://nissanpure.com/FSMs/S-Chassis/S1 ... via/AX.pdf

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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by adamky »

I am learning so much from this build. You're getting into stuff that I have never seen discussed here. Kudos to you for documenting all of this in such detail, even when you're not 100% sure if you're doing it all "perfectly". Honesty and integrity can be hard to find on forums where egos can sometimes get in the way.



Also, if one of us ever relocates to where we live near each other, we should open a shop. It would take us years to finish each build, but it would be perfect with amazing attention to detail!
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Re: New Project: Mild build

Post by cleantune »

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Thanks man! I've been learning so much from your build and other people's builds on here, its great to hear I'm providing useful information myself; whether its my own ideas or info gathered elsewhere. The detail and honesty I try to include stems from my own online "research"; wishing there was just a little bit more info available or a more "important" view of something- for example that subframe bushing install. So, if I'm filling in some missing gaps of info that is available online, that's great news! and I encourage others to do the same thing.

adamky wrote:Also, if one of us ever relocates to where we live near each other, we should open a shop. It would take us years to finish each build, but it would be perfect with amazing attention to detail!
I agree, and yes, so true years haha

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