Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd, S14

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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by supakat » Tue Aug 18, 2015 8:43 pm

adamky wrote:In hindsight, I wish I would have done the 11mm L19 studs when I first but the motor. The headstuds will be the main thing keeping me from running too much boost.
Same here. But oh well.

Just work with the 2k injectors. If you do option 1 or 2 and run into issues, you will be like I should have done option 3.
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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by adamky » Wed Aug 19, 2015 10:08 am

That's a good point. Plus, I like the idea of installing the fuel system along the AEM EMS so I can have cool features like 2-step/launch control.

I won't be shooting for anymore than 500 whp, so I'm thinking that just ONE Walbro 450 would probably be enough for my goals.
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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by adamky » Sun Sep 06, 2015 10:56 am

Since there has been a lot of smoke coming out of the PCV lately and thd idle has been rough, I've been worried about the health of the motor. I did a leakdown test yesterday followed by a compression test. Neither were very promising. I'm going to have to pull the motor and see what's broke. Bummer. Im sure this means mo' money and mo' problems.
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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by adamky » Mon Sep 07, 2015 12:23 pm

Got the header off and took a look at the exhaust valves: Image


They all look like this.
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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by hotbox240 » Mon Sep 07, 2015 4:16 pm

Ouch. Did you burn um?

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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by adamky » Mon Sep 07, 2015 8:33 pm

I don't know. Did I? This is the only motor that I have ever built/tuned/boosted/etc so I really have no experience with what a burnt valve looks like.
Last edited by adamky on Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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CHAPTER 3...

Post by adamky » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:16 pm

Part 3: Adam's fantastic voyage from supercharged blandness to turbocharged bliss 8)

Backstory: I bought just about everything to switch to turbo 3 years ago when I was making more money than I had sense. The parts have sat in plastic bins for 3 years, gathering dust and quietly, patiently waiting on their chance to prove themselves. Well, due to being tired of the supercharger setup as well as the fact that the motor has not been running well and smoking like crazy, I talked a good friend of mine into letting me use his garage for "3 weeks" to sort out the engine issues and install the turbo setup. My original goal was to really get it out of his garage in 3 weeks. But the past few days of tearing everything apart have made that seem a bit unrealistic. Now, onto the teardown.

As mentioned already a few posts back, the first thing that I did was a leakdown test, which did not go well. Leakdown was high on 2 cylinders and inconsistent between them all. It sounded like the exhaust valves were definitely leaking. I could hear it by putting my ear on the tailpipe. That was followed by a compression test, which did not go well either. I don't have the numbers with me right now so I'll edit this post tomorrow to add the results below this paragraph.



First, I removed the header, which revealed that every exhaust valve has some sort of white deposits caked onto the back of it.
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Next, I pulled the intake manifold off and found a bunch of fun surprises. First off, the injectors. I had heard about how E85 can gum up injectors but I was not prepared for this:
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That black gunk on there is very thick and I'm a little amazed that they were still working with all of that on them. Here are some more detailed pics of the tips:
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Note that I rubbed some of the gunk off with my finger before taking the pic of this one:
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Not only were the injector tips gummed up, but so were the intake ports. It is literally caked on the intake ports, backs of the valves, etc.
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Here's a little bit that I scraped out of one of the intake ports. This is just from a small portion of ONE side of an intake port.
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Since the first leak down test was troubling, but didn't really point to one definitive issue, I decided to do it again now that I could see the back of the valves and listen/feel more closely for leaks. I only did cylinder one. This test again pointed to the exhaust valves as being the most obvious, but probably not the only issue. So, I pulled the head.

The tops of the cylinders were pretty gummed up too, so I wiped them off. While doing this, I was a bit shocked to notice that I could rock the tops of the pistons back and forth close to a full mm within the cylinder. I know that forged pistons need to be undersized because they expand so much after heating up. However, it is a lot more movement than I figured it would be. I'm not sure if it's normal or not.

I'm definitely going to have to take the head to a shop to get checked, built, etc. Since I've got it apart, I'll probably go ahead and order aftermarket valves, springs, and retainers and have the shop assemble it and maybe do a mild port and polish along with a valve job.

Here's how she sits right now:
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I'm going to try and get the block out tomorrow and get it on the engine stand so I can start investigating and pulling it apart. I'm really leaning toward taking it to the machine shop as well so I can get the block and head fitted for 12mm RB26 head studs. Because f*ck "head lift"!
Last edited by adamky on Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:12 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: CHAPTER 3...

Post by s14fiend » Mon Sep 07, 2015 9:58 pm

adamky wrote:CHAPTER3: Adam's fantastic voyage from supercharged blandness to turbocharged bliss 8)

I talked a good friend of mine into letting me use his garage for "3 weeks" to sort out the engine issues and install the turbo setup


I'm going to try and get the block out tomorrow and get it on the engine stand so I can start pulling it apart. I'm really leaning toward taking it to the machine shop as well so I can get the block and head fitted for 12mm RB26 head studs. Because f*ck "head lift"!

Yo.... good to hear your getting back into the car hobby/festivities -_- lol

I like the way you say "3 weeks" LMAO it's funny how 3 weeks can easily turn into 3 years with resulting life issues and budgeting for this hobby that can seem never ending.

Bro, I noticed you said 12mm RB headstuds and going to a machine shop. I hear that the new ARP CA 625+ are the headstuds the latest and greatest headstands to go with. The 12mm cover a good amount of area but the material of the stud is still ARP2000 quality. Which when compared to one another they hold about the same with less drilling/modification to get them to fit.

So it might just run you cheaper to have the machine shop put the ARP CA 625+ headstuds they sell 11mm for EVOs and 12mm for the VR38 GTR motor ( super expensive stick to 11mm EVO). But the EVO ARP CA 625+ studs are not that bad in comparison with the cost of the GTR studs plus you can pop that ARP headstud cherry on the KA24 I haven't heard of anyone adapting them yet.

Either way cheers and good luck.

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Re: Supercharged S14 - Part 2

Post by adamky » Mon Sep 07, 2015 10:38 pm

When I looked at him and said, "This may take a little longer than 3 weeks, buddy", he replied with an eye roll and said... "You and I both know that this was never really a 3 week project, dude". Don't you hate it when your friends know you just a little too well??

Those 625+ studs look awesome, but the price.. ouch! I do remember reading about them back when they were first released. Regarding the 11mm vs 12mm, I've read numerous threads on here about upgraded head studs and there's always a big debate about 11mm w/ time serts versus 12mm w/o time serts (drilled/tapped). A bunch of guys on here have the 11mm with time serts and have gotten crazy power out of them, so maybe I should be leaning that way. You do have some really good points and maybe you are right about sticking with the 11mm. From what I remember, the head doesn't need to be drilled or modded for the 11mm, just the block.

However, for twice the price of the L19s with only a small increase in tensile strength (260,000 vs 270,000 psi), I'm just not sure they're worth it. The only tricky part about the L19s is making sure that they stay oiled. That doesn't sound too hard.

I really appreciate your advice. You have me already re-thinking things here. Decisions, decisions...
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Re: CHAPTER 3...

Post by adamky » Wed Sep 09, 2015 12:09 am

s14fiend wrote:Bro, I noticed you said 12mm RB headstuds and going to a machine shop. I hear that the new ARP CA 625+ are the headstuds the latest and greatest headstands to go with. The 12mm cover a good amount of area but the material of the stud is still ARP2000 quality. Which when compared to one another they hold about the same with less drilling/modification to get them to fit.

So it might just run you cheaper to have the machine shop put the ARP CA 625+ headstuds they sell 11mm for EVOs and 12mm for the VR38 GTR motor ( super expensive stick to 11mm EVO). But the EVO ARP CA 625+ studs are not that bad in comparison with the cost of the GTR studs plus you can pop that ARP headstud cherry on the KA24 I haven't heard of anyone adapting them yet.

Either way cheers and good luck.
Well, twist my arm... you talked me into it. I just order the Evo CA625+ studs from RealStreetPerformance.com. The saying is, "Do it right or do it twice", right?
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Re: CHAPTER 3...

Post by s14fiend » Thu Sep 10, 2015 10:07 am

adamky wrote:
s14fiend wrote:Bro, I noticed you said 12mm RB headstuds and going to a machine shop. I hear that the new ARP CA 625+ are the headstuds the latest and greatest headstands to go with. The 12mm cover a good amount of area but the material of the stud is still ARP2000 quality. Which when compared to one another they hold about the same with less drilling/modification to get them to fit.

So it might just run you cheaper to have the machine shop put the ARP CA 625+ headstuds they sell 11mm for EVOs and 12mm for the VR38 GTR motor ( super expensive stick to 11mm EVO). But the EVO ARP CA 625+ studs are not that bad in comparison with the cost of the GTR studs plus you can pop that ARP headstud cherry on the KA24 I haven't heard of anyone adapting them yet.

Either way cheers and good luck.
Well, twist my arm... you talked me into it. I just order the Evo CA625+ studs from RealStreetPerformance.com. The saying is, "Do it right or do it twice", right?

WHOHOO....Nice and Congrats.

Did you contact them by phone or....? They usually have good advice as well and people have made some serious power with those style headstuds already on 4 cylinder engines.

Keep us posted and updated on progress if and when possible. :D

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Sat Sep 12, 2015 11:03 pm

I just ordered them through their site.

I've been busy every day working on this thing. Block is out and will be going to a friend-of-a-friend's "race shop" tomorrow. Please excuse the way the motor was pulled and is hanging all crooked. I had most of the accessory brackets still on the motor and could not find a good place to hook the short chains onto other points. By the time I realized just how bad it was, the motor was separated from the trans and it was to late too back out and redo the chains.
Lesson learned... remove the accessory brackets before hooking up the chains...
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And now I have this emptiness staring at me:
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The pistons have an unnerving amount of movement within the cylinder walls. This being my first built motor, I have no idea what's normal and what's not. I know that it's normal for forged pistons to have more movement within the cylinder when cold than cast pistons do. But I don't know just how much is "normal" and with all of the smoke that was coming out of the PCV before I took it apart, I just want to remove the pistons and measure everything, check the rings, etc to make sure all is good before she goes back into the car.


I spent the past two days disassembling and then cleaning all of the black gunk out of the head. She's finally pretty clean and ready for me to attempt to do a very mild port/polish.

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The valves had quite a bit of side to side movement. After 150K+ miles, I'm sure the valve guides are worn and the valves were all necked quite a bit. And of course the valve stem seals just fell apart after the valves were removed. I priced out how much it would be for all new OEM valves/guides and it was expensive enough that upgrading to all BC stuff was not that much more money. So, new BC valves, guides, and dual valve springs with titanium retainers have all been ordered. F*ck! I didn't plan on having to replace this much stuff and I really don't have money for this crap right now.
Last edited by adamky on Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:32 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by cleantune » Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:25 pm

.
adamky wrote:F*ck! I didn't plan on having to replace this much stuff and I really don't have money for this crap right now.
^hah, exactly how I feel every time I start a new project... not small bolt on things, but any thing kind of involved- you're not alone. It's like "oh I'll just take this out and replace it"....nope.

Seems like you're making pretty good progress on this so far though. That's a great idea to check measurements on everything. Oh and that head is looking clean!

.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Sun Sep 13, 2015 8:08 pm

Yeah, it's impossible to do anything cheap if you're a meticulous and detailed person, and I know you're the same way from following your build. It's like, "If I'm going to replace this, I might as well replace it with better aftermarket stuff" and it just snowballs from there.

The guy we took the block to today looked at the piston movement and said he didn't think it was excessive at all. Of course, we really won't know 100% until we disassemble the bottom end and mic everything, but he said he would guess that the piston to wall clearance is probably fine. The real issue is that the cross-hatching on the cylinder walls is no longer visible and he believes that I probably had it running a little too rich and washed down the walls, ruining the ring seal.

He said that once we get the engine apart to call him and he'll re-hone the cylinders on one of his machines. That and some new seals and hopefully that will be the only thing that needs to be replaced on the bottom end. Key word there being "hopefully". The motor had good oil pressure so chances are that the bearings are fine and can all be reused.

I wish I could have taken pictures of this guy's personal "race shop" that we went to. He races big block alcohol full-on drag cars as a hobby. The shop is bigger than most houses. I counted 6 garage doors. We went into ONE SIDE of it and there were 8 classic and race cars in various stages of build. And they were all on full car lifts with one on the ground and one above. I've never in my life seen a personal shop like this. And we didn't even get to see the other side of the shop that apparently has an engine dyno, CNC mill, lathe, etc, etc. It's one of those places that when you tell somebody about it they're probably thinking "yeah, right".


Anyway, we got back to my buddy's garage and disassembled the bottom end and pretty much everything was like the guy told us he thought it would be. Here are some pics. Nothing special, just a disassembled engine that everyone has seen before. I couldn't get a decent pic of the cylinders to show the lack of cross-hatching. I tried several times but just couldn't get the lighting and angle right.

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He told us that the entire ring would probably be shiny and smooth and apparently that is not good. He said a good ring will only be shiny on one half. I tried to take a pic to show this:

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The only thing that concerned me a lot was the very front of the crank where there had clearly been some serious heat going on there due to the discoloration of the metal:
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What is causing that you may ask? My guess is that it's the supercharger belt. I have to run that belt so damn tight or the belt slips and squeals quite often. It shares the same belt with the Nissan Quest alternator, both of which require a decent amount of power to turn. And since it's a puny 4 rib belt on a supercharger that was designed for a 6-rib belt.. it's either run it super tight or have it constantly squeal.
Last edited by adamky on Mon Sep 14, 2015 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by Greaser » Mon Sep 14, 2015 12:04 pm

take that bearing shell off and take another pic and post it. That heat is not from what you think it is. Its from the manufacturing and machining of the crank 25 someodd years ago.

what EXACT oil were you running with the e85. Oils not compatible with ethanol fuels will have issues. E85 didnt cause all that sludge posted a couple pics earlier.

If it smokes AFTER you fix the valve stem seals, the valve guides and rehone the cylinders with new rings, you have your pcv system hooked up wrong.

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by cleantune » Mon Sep 14, 2015 4:10 pm

adamky wrote:Yeah, it's impossible to do anything cheap if you're a meticulous and detailed person, and I know you're the same way from following your build. It's like, "If I'm going to replace this, I might as well replace it with better aftermarket stuff" and it just snowballs from there.
haha yes, couldn't have said it better.

Man, I thought the machine shop I went to was cool, but that shop you went to sounds amazing! Maybe you could bring a little spy camera with you for a little "behind the scenes" tour for all of us?

So is that "cross-hatching" on the side of the piston just an "indicator mark" then?- for something like running rich?

.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by cham » Mon Sep 14, 2015 5:29 pm

20150910_181618.jpg
Yeah I just want my head built with a new head gasket and the bottom end checked. Here it is $3,244 later. Doesn't include an all new turbo setup with a diff intake and aem v2. Blah, blah, blah

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Mon Sep 14, 2015 8:57 pm

Greaser wrote:take that bearing shell off and take another pic and post it. That heat is not from what you think it is. Its from the manufacturing and machining of the crank 25 someodd years ago.

what EXACT oil were you running with the e85. Oils not compatible with ethanol fuels will have issues. E85 didnt cause all that sludge posted a couple pics earlier.

If it smokes AFTER you fix the valve stem seals, the valve guides and rehone the cylinders with new rings, you have your pcv system hooked up wrong.
You're blowing my mind. Thanks for jumping in here. I'll take a pic of the crank tomorrow with the bearing cap off. The belt had to be so tight to keep from slipping and it always had me worried that pulling on the crank pulley so hard in one direction would cause some kind of issue with the crank bearing over time. I didn't recall seeing that discoloration near the bearing after I picked up the motor from the machine shop 3 years ago. But I just went back and looked at my pics from then and you are absolutely right... the discoloration was there then. I guess that's what I get for jumping to conclusions.

As for the oil, I've been running Mobil1 0W-20 or 0W-30 for about the last 6 months or so. The car has been burning oil through leaky valve seals and I've had an oil leak at my Skullworks oil block (filter relocation block), so I lose a quart every couple oof weeks, depending on usage. So, it's a mix of 0W-20 and 0W-30 of various types, but it has all been Mobil 1.

Do you feel pretty certain that E85 didn't cause my issues? The gunk started at the injectors and there was some in the intake manifold right around the injector bungs. I'll try and take a pic of the inside of the intake manifold. A quick google image search of "E85 gunk" brings up a bunch of pictures very similar to mine: https://www.google.com/search?q=e85+gun ... 702#imgrc=_

Do you think that the ethanol may have caused the oil I was running to gum up and then this gunk leaked down from the valve seals into the cylinders? I'm just trying to understand how ethanol and an oil that was incompatible with it could have caused the gunk in the places where I found it.



The PCV valve was replaced with a 3/8" hose barb 3 years ago when I had the bottom end rebuilt with forged pistons and rods. It has a hose connected to it that runs back and then down and dumps about mid way down the transmission. The valve cover vent has had a breather filter and has been running fine that way up until about 2-3 months ago when I started noticing smoke coming out from underneath the car at stoplights. Here's a video of the smoke at idle a few days before I started tearing the motor down. It had just been driven several paces and was fully warmed up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcQU4e8pR0Y. When coming to a stop, it would really blow out some smoke.
Last edited by adamky on Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:04 pm

cleantune wrote:
adamky wrote:Yeah, it's impossible to do anything cheap if you're a meticulous and detailed person, and I know you're the same way from following your build. It's like, "If I'm going to replace this, I might as well replace it with better aftermarket stuff" and it just snowballs from there.
haha yes, couldn't have said it better.

Man, I thought the machine shop I went to was cool, but that shop you went to sounds amazing! Maybe you could bring a little spy camera with you for a little "behind the scenes" tour for all of us?

So is that "cross-hatching" on the side of the piston just an "indicator mark" then?- for something like running rich?

.
It was the most amazing shop I have ever been in, and that includes the handful of real "performance shops" that I've been in. I might ask if I can take a few pics when we go back, but he is such a nice guy and he's helping me out for free, so I don't want to piss him off. With all of the money wrapped up in the shop, he may not want pictures of it posted online.
I'm not sure what you mean by cross-hatching on the side of the piston? Are you referring to the closeup picture of one of the rings?

cham wrote:
20150910_181618.jpg
Yeah I just want my head built with a new head gasket and the bottom end checked. Here it is $3,244 later. Doesn't include an all new turbo setup with a diff intake and aem v2. Blah, blah, blah
Clearly, we're all insane. I keep telling my buddy that I'm going to start telling people to just leave their cars stock, because once you start, it's so hard to stop. It really is an addiction.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by cham » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:59 am

I should've done everything the 1st time.

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by Greaser » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:48 am

adamky wrote:
Greaser wrote:take that bearing shell off and take another pic and post it. That heat is not from what you think it is. Its from the manufacturing and machining of the crank 25 someodd years ago.

what EXACT oil were you running with the e85. Oils not compatible with ethanol fuels will have issues. E85 didnt cause all that sludge posted a couple pics earlier.

If it smokes AFTER you fix the valve stem seals, the valve guides and rehone the cylinders with new rings, you have your pcv system hooked up wrong.
You're blowing my mind. Thanks for jumping in here. I'll take a pic of the crank tomorrow with the bearing cap off. The belt had to be so tight to keep from slipping and it always had me worried that pulling on the crank pulley so hard in one direction would cause some kind of issue with the crank bearing over time. I didn't recall seeing that discoloration near the bearing after I picked up the motor from the machine shop 3 years ago. But I just went back and looked at my pics from then and you are absolutely right... the discoloration was there then. I guess that's what I get for jumping to conclusions.

As for the oil, I've been running Mobil1 0W-20 or 0W-30 for about the last 6 months or so. The car has been burning oil through leaky valve seals and I've had an oil leak at my Skullworks oil block (filter relocation block), so I lose a quart every week or two, depending on usage. So, it's a mix of 0W-20 and 0W-30 of various types, but it has all been Mobil 1.

Do you feel pretty certain that E85 didn't cause my issues? The gunk started at the injectors and there was some in the intake manifold right around the injector bungs. I'll try and take a pic of the inside of the intake manifold. A quick google image search of "E85 gunk" brings up a bunch of pictures very similar to mine: https://www.google.com/search?q=e85+gun ... 702#imgrc=_

Do you think that the ethanol may have caused the oil I was running to gum up and then this gunk leaked down from the valve seals into the cylinders? I'm just trying to understand how ethanol and an oil that was incompatible with it could have caused the gunk in the places where I found it.



The PCV valve was replaced with a 3/8" hose barb 3 years ago when I had the bottom end rebuilt with forged pistons and rods. It has a hose connected to it that runs back and then down and dumps about mid way down the transmission. The valve cover vent has had a breather filter and has been running fine that way up until about 2-3 months ago when I started noticing smoke coming out from underneath the car at stoplights. Here's a video of the smoke at idle a few days before I started tearing the motor down. It had just been driven several paces and was fully warmed up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcQU4e8pR0Y. When coming to a stop, it would really blow out some smoke.


that oil is a little on the thin side.

E85 absolutely did not cause any of your issues. Our shop drag car runs it as well as several customer street cars. My old ITB car ran it. Never an issue and the cleanest pistons, exhaust and intake valves/ports i've seen vs other fuels.

You basically dont have a PCV system hooked up right now. No fresh air is being forced through the motor IF you got rid of the pcv valve and replaced it with a barb that gets spit under the car. If this is the case, you're venting blow by gases from the valve cover and from the barb fitting but no fresh air is coming in to replace those gases during vacuum conditions in the intake mani. This is how we generally do our drag cars, but our drag cars oil change intervals are every race with Driven xr-7/xr-5 racing oil designed for ethanol use.

The factory pcv valve is connected to the intake manifold to provide vacuum to the bottom end, and since the valve cover is open, fresh air enters and blow by gases are expelled through the pcv valve into the intake manifold.

Check the oil youre using, make sure its compatible with ethanol based fuels/flex fuel vehicles. Oil that is not compatible will gel/sludge up in the pan and wherever there is oil being subjected to ethanol based fuel.

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by nissanfanatic » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:22 am

I would use Mobil 1 0w-40 or Rotella 5w-40. I run Rotella in every car I own except for the S2000 which gets Motul 300v.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:03 am

Greaser wrote:that oil is a little on the thin side.

E85 absolutely did not cause any of your issues. Our shop drag car runs it as well as several customer street cars. My old ITB car ran it. Never an issue and the cleanest pistons, exhaust and intake valves/ports i've seen vs other fuels.

You basically dont have a PCV system hooked up right now. No fresh air is being forced through the motor IF you got rid of the pcv valve and replaced it with a barb that gets spit under the car. If this is the case, you're venting blow by gases from the valve cover and from the barb fitting but no fresh air is coming in to replace those gases during vacuum conditions in the intake mani. This is how we generally do our drag cars, but our drag cars oil change intervals are every race with Driven xr-7/xr-5 racing oil designed for ethanol use.

The factory pcv valve is connected to the intake manifold to provide vacuum to the bottom end, and since the valve cover is open, fresh air enters and blow by gases are expelled through the pcv valve into the intake manifold.

Check the oil youre using, make sure its compatible with ethanol based fuels/flex fuel vehicles. Oil that is not compatible will gel/sludge up in the pan and wherever there is oil being subjected to ethanol based fuel.
So tell me this... Let's say I reinstall a PCV valve and hook it back up to the manifold. It will get vacuum at idle. But as soon as I get into boost, the PCV valve closes and the blow-by goes where, exactly? Out of the valve cover breather?

When you look at big power cars, they usually run PCV VTA and have extra bungs welded onto their valve cover and going to a catch can. This is to deal with the blow-by that is too excessive under high boost for the PCV valve to handle by itself, correct? After all, the blow-by at idle is nothing compared to the blow-by during WOT full boost.

I'm going to run dino oil for the motor break-in, but once I swap that out, I'll go with something thicker and make sure it is compatible with ethanol. I still don't completely understand how ethanol and an incompatible oil could cause all of the sludge on my injectors, intake mani, etc. But I want this to be the last time that I open this motor up for a long time, so I want to do everything right this time. And your experience and expertise is light years ahead of mine, so I will definitely follow your advice.

nissanfanatic wrote:I would use Mobil 1 0w-40 or Rotella 5w-40. I run Rotella in every car I own except for the S2000 which gets Motul 300v.
Roger that. I'm shooting for 500-600 whp on high boost, so thicker oil is probably a good idea. And I know a lot of folks on here run Rotella with E85 and don't experience these weird gunk buildup issues that I experienced.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by Greaser » Tue Sep 15, 2015 12:41 pm

yeah under boost the pcv valve is designed to close. Blow by gases then exit through the valve cover breather.

Anytime you see a catch can routed from a valve cover thats the general idea is to assist in blow by evacuation from the block during high hp use.

My personal car uses a crankcase ventilation that is a little unorthodox. I learned a couple tricks from my ITB car and implemented them in this one. I have a 1/2" barb replacing the pcv valve on the oil pump cover connected to a 5 gallon air tank. The air tank connects through 1/2" check valves to the intake manifold at the stock location. The valve cover breather is removed and welded shut. The front main and rear main seals are installed backwards. At idle the crankcase is under 20" of vacuum, highway speeds its at about 10" and full throttle the check valves shut to keep boost out of the tank and the engine just eats away the vacuum thats in the tank. I datalog tank vacuum and have yet to see it depleted or go into positive pressure because of blow by. During the winter months I have to empty out about a 1/2 gallon of water a month out of the tank. Its some nasty looking smelling water, smells like fuel and theres a small amount of that yellow sludgy stuff in the water. Summer months I dont have to drain it. This is one way to keep blow by out of the crank case and from contaminating the oil. The other is a vacuum pump.

It may not be an oil issue, you may have a valve guide that is cracked, a stem seal that is leaking or a valve guide bore that is cracked or leaking oil into the intake mani causing the contamination you saw.

All that build up on the exhaust valve is the result of oil going through a combustion process. I see it on motors needing various rebuilds of key locations where oil can enter the combustion chamber. You will see that buildup on the spark plugs too.

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by cleantune » Tue Sep 15, 2015 2:57 pm

^ some great info Greaser, that sounds like an interesting setup.
adamky wrote: "The real issue is that the cross-hatching on the piston walls is no longer visible and he believes that I probably had it running a little too rich and washed down the cylinder walls, ruining the ring seal.
^This is what I meant, just wondering if all pistons have this like a universal "wear indicator.

Anyways, so back to the PCV valve and recirculated oil catch debate, hah. Someone forwarded me this pretty in-depth article on the topic of blow-by and recirculating oil catch "breathers". Haven't had a chance to fully read through it, but if you or anyone else is interested or just completely overcome with boredom here's the link:
http://www.106rallye.co.uk/members/dyno ... ystems.pdf

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by supakat » Tue Sep 15, 2015 3:15 pm

Good to see progress Adam. Keep it up. Can't wait to see this done. Make sure you gap your rings to your hp desire. I have Wiseco .018 top and .020 bottom which can handle up to 550whp before butting up supposedly from a tech at Wiseco.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by nissanfanatic » Tue Sep 15, 2015 4:25 pm

adamky wrote:
nissanfanatic wrote:I would use Mobil 1 0w-40 or Rotella 5w-40. I run Rotella in every car I own except for the S2000 which gets Motul 300v.
Roger that. I'm shooting for 500-600 whp on high boost, so thicker oil is probably a good idea. And I know a lot of folks on here run Rotella with E85 and don't experience these weird gunk buildup issues that I experienced.
Yep. Lots of people run the original 15w-40. I run that stuff in my diesel truck.

In the cars, I use the T6 5w-40 which is synthetic. I settled on it over M1 0w-40 after doing a lot of reading on G35 forums. The VQ is really hard on oil and also very picky. So, I figure if it is one of the better oils for a car that is very hard on oil then it is probably some pretty good stuff.

You can always try some different oils and have them analyzed for wear metals. I did that on the S2000 after dropping in another used engine just to make sure it was running well. I'd go do a track day at Roebling and then send in a sample. I did that twice before I was comfortable that everything was good.

Now, I just cut open filters periodically to check. I'll probably do another sample here in the near future.
-Cory

1992 Nissan 240sx KA24DE-Turbo [ GONE ]
1995 Subaru Impreza L AWD [ OK ]
2000 Honda S2000 [ GONE ]
2003 Infiniti G35 Sport Coupe [ GONE ]
1986 Ford F-250 4x4 International IDI Diesel [ GONE ]
2003 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution [ GONE ]
2004 Subaru WRX Wagon [ GONE ]
2009 Honda Fit Sport [ OK ]
2002 BMW 325i Sedan [ OK ]

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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:53 pm

Greaser wrote:My personal car uses a crankcase ventilation that is a little unorthodox. I learned a couple tricks from my ITB car and implemented them in this one. I have a 1/2" barb replacing the pcv valve on the oil pump cover connected to a 5 gallon air tank. The air tank connects through 1/2" check valves to the intake manifold at the stock location. The valve cover breather is removed and welded shut. The front main and rear main seals are installed backwards. At idle the crankcase is under 20" of vacuum, highway speeds its at about 10" and full throttle the check valves shut to keep boost out of the tank and the engine just eats away the vacuum thats in the tank. I datalog tank vacuum and have yet to see it depleted or go into positive pressure because of blow by. During the winter months I have to empty out about a 1/2 gallon of water a month out of the tank. Its some nasty looking smelling water, smells like fuel and theres a small amount of that yellow sludgy stuff in the water. Summer months I dont have to drain it. This is one way to keep blow by out of the crank case and from contaminating the oil. The other is a vacuum pump.

It may not be an oil issue, you may have a valve guide that is cracked, a stem seal that is leaking or a valve guide bore that is cracked or leaking oil into the intake mani causing the contamination you saw.

All that build up on the exhaust valve is the result of oil going through a combustion process. I see it on motors needing various rebuilds of key locations where oil can enter the combustion chamber. You will see that buildup on the spark plugs too.
That is a crazy setup but it makes a whole lot of sense. I clearly need to spend some more time re-thinking my PCV system.

I was looking for a catch can a few weeks ago and came across a post by Mishimoto on the FT86 forums: Mishimoto Compact Baffled Oil Catch Can Build Thread!. I was impressed enough with the design and testing to purchase one. I've got the 3 port version and I had planned to run both the valve cover vent and the crankcase breather tube to it. I was going to run the 3rd "out" tube either vented to atmosphere or run it to the turbo intake. It sounds like that may not be my best bet, so what is your recommendation on how to set this up that's somewhere between a stock system and your custom 5-gallon air tank setup? Should I replace my hose barb with a new OEM PCV valve and run that to a port on the intake manifold (with catch can in-between)? And then just a breather on the valve cover? I will be running a Xcessive intake manifold so I don't have the factory setup with the vacuum tube on the bottom of each runner.

Or... should I start looking at using an electric vacuum pump like this one from Summit: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-760152/overview/. With the catch can connected to both the valve cover vent and the PCV vent, that should work great, shouldn't it?
Last edited by adamky on Tue Sep 15, 2015 11:14 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by adamky » Tue Sep 15, 2015 7:05 pm

cleantune wrote:^ some great info Greaser, that sounds like an interesting setup.
adamky wrote: "The real issue is that the cross-hatching on the piston walls is no longer visible and he believes that I probably had it running a little too rich and washed down the cylinder walls, ruining the ring seal.
^This is what I meant, just wondering if all pistons have this like a universal "wear indicator.
Oh, gotcha. The cross-hatching is on the cylinder walls, not the pistons. I think my choice of words was confusing because I wrote "piston walls" instead of "cylinder walls". The cross-hatch pattern is a result of cylinder honing, in which a machine spins abrasive vertical pads (stones) inside the cylinder while being worked up and down. This action of spinning while moving up and down creates the cross-hatching that is vital for a good pistol ring seal. There are better videos on Youtube of this, but here's one I found with a quick search that shows how the process is done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy_g1rG7mKQ
And here's a pic of what cross-hatching looks like after a proper cylinder hone (honing?) job:
Image

When I disassembled my stock motor after blowing the ring lands on all 4 pistons, I could still see the cross-hatching from the factory after 140,000 miles. That shows a healthy motor that had well-seated rings. (The motor had fantastic compression on stock cams: 210 psi on all 4 cylinders!). Rings that are properly "seated" will help seal the cylinder which keeps oil on the cylinder walls, thereby protecting the cross-hatching. When you run too rich a lot, you dilute/contaminate your oil with the extra fuel. Fuel is not a great lubricant. So the fuel in the oil "washes" the cylinders of their protective layer of oil. When this happens, there is more friction between the rings and cylinder wall. This causes excessive wear to both the rings and cylinder walls, basically "grinding" away at the cylinders and removing the cross-hatching. Then you typically see some vertical scoring/scratching in the cylinder walls instead. That's what mine looks like right now. The cross-hatching is no longer visible and there are some very fine vertical lines there instead. I'll try again to get a good picture before and after we re-hone the cylinders.
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Re: Adam's formerly supercharged... now soon-to-be-turbo'd,

Post by cleantune » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:10 pm

adamky wrote:The cross-hatching is on the cylinder walls, not the pistons.
...now this sounds more familiar : ]

That's pretty amazing that cross hatching lasted through 140k miles; really speaks for how well the motor was maintained (and made).

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