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KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Thu Nov 20, 2014 7:08 pm

Hello all,

So some of you know I was heavy into all motor ITB's setups several years ago. After smashing through some goals, I set some goals that I could not acheive as I could not justify spending the kind of money in the head I was going to have to. During that time I went through some hiccups like everyone does. Mostly bending INTAKE valves, bending the snouts on the crankshaft, and blowing out the tensioners freeze plugs. After giving up on the all motor route, I planned to install an eaton M112 onto a ka and setup a 7:1comp motor for that with the monster port head some of you might remember. That motor sits in the corner waiting for me to hit the lottery to finish the blower setup. That motor also houses the version 0 of the locked tensioner. It required external adjustments(outside the covers) and was just a pain in the ass to work with.

Recently i came up with a way that the average person would be able to own/setup and enjoy the mechanically locked tensioner. But first lets discuss why I came up with this idea. Several times I would go to driving events or drift events and at the end of the day had a poor running car. Turns out most of the time the intake valves had tapped the pistons. HOW is this possible!? i thought.

In a normally and physically stable running engine, the intake valve is only close to the piston during opening events. The exhaust valve is only close to the piston near closing events. Whenever there is a valvetrain problem or float it ALWAYS shows up with the exhaust valve. So when I set cam timing and have nearly .040" to .060" of piston to valve clearance how is it bending intake valves.

I believed I found the problem years ago and finally mustered up to prove it as i believe it to be. The hydraulic (engine oil pressure supplied) tensioners were collapsing and allowing cam timing to be changed. This can happen 3 ways, first; during cranking with low oil pressure. The second, a rapid engine deceleration; standing on a revlimiter or a very hard gear change with a stiff clutch. The third is when the engine is cranking and for whatever reason as there are many, the engine kicks back hard on the starter. Basically the engine is being forced backwards counterclockwise rotation by a combustion event that started wayyyyy before the normal 30deg btdc to 0deg btdc.

So the tensioners are fed by the engines oil pressure, which is anywhere from 20-70psi depending on rpm, bearing clearances ect ect. The factory tensioners do employ a ball check valve to slow oil being displaced from the tensioners. However there are still openings that supply oil to the chain.

Now think about installing springs with 80 to 100lbs on the seat, much higher than factory. Then add a high lift high duration camshaft. Those tensioners are starting to hate life and without enough oil pressure to keep them tensioned, I believe they move.

So I setup a mockup engine with .060 thick copper washers to act as the thickness of a HG, built the tensioners and setup the camera. Heres some pics and some vids. While i've never bent any valves on stock springs and camshafts, i have with aftermarket stuff. There are a handfull of stories local and from the past that inspired me to act on this. All of them were intake valves and all of them you couldnt tell unless you put the valves in a drill. Tell me what you think!!!!

I built enough to sell extras if you want, they'll be posted in the forsale section when the stainless hardware I ordered comes in.



Image
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VIDEOS demonstration below on a mock up block
I tried to embed the videos. heres the direct links. help me if you can
http://www.youtube.com/embed/Zw7ZIKuYHh ... m70uj4htpQ

http://www.youtube.com/embed/UfCWfrd94x ... m70uj4htpQ
Last edited by Greaser on Mon Nov 24, 2014 3:32 am, edited 3 times in total.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:35 am

I was slightly worried as I read on as to how this would come about but the way you designed it is brilliant and I want haha

but now the timing covers wont go on?

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Fri Nov 21, 2014 11:47 am

watch the video!!!!!

stainless set screw hardware came in today. Going into the forsale section with correct hardware today/tomarrow. Both front covers WILL bolt up and clear.


aight went and installed the hardware and took some new pics of actual product ready to get sold up. tonight i'll set that up.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Fri Nov 21, 2014 12:34 pm

ALLEN KEYED! NICE

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Fri Nov 21, 2014 8:54 pm

I saw something like that on an Altima forum dude welded the caps on, never knew why though

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sat Nov 22, 2014 10:42 pm

Still waiting to see a price

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sat Nov 22, 2014 11:25 pm

Yea these look cool and may be interested if the price is right...

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:35 am

posted up in the forsale section $225
Last edited by Greaser on Mon Dec 28, 2015 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sun Nov 23, 2014 2:25 pm

Are you going to make a few more sets with the cores you get back or is this a limited time item?

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:46 pm

yes with the cores i'll continue to make them. Even if i dont get cores back i priced it so i could buy new ones without any loss.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sun Nov 23, 2014 7:25 pm

Really interesting idea. I don't need these right now with my stock springs, but they would be good to have in the future. I promised myself I wouldn't spend any more money on the car until I get a house, but this is very tempting. Damn you and and your good ideas, Greaser!!

It's good to see you still messing with KAs. I haven't seen you post on here in quite a while and I figured that you had moved on to something else.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:27 pm

do you guys think that without that extra movemont it would combat some vibration/harmonics problems the ka has ?

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Mon Nov 24, 2014 11:18 am

adamky wrote:It's good to see you still messing with KAs. I haven't seen you post on here in quite a while and I figured that you had moved on to something else.


being on the internet pissed me off sooooo much to the point i just stopped going some places. ALL people all of a sudden had the ability to be heard on forums when they didnt deserve to. So instead of trying to fix it all i just turned my back. I've learned to just let people think and post what they want whether i believe it to be correct or not.

I'll be messing with 240s for a long time to come.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 11:25 am

Well, it's good to see you back. You're a 240 legend, as far as I am concerned. I remember when you were running 10's in the 1/4 in your SR car before 99% of people had even hit over 300whp. You were also one of the few people who even responded to my stupid questions back in the Freshalloy.com days.

Anyways, back to mechanically locked tensioners.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:39 pm

I always wondered back in the day, how did that person run a 10 with a 300hp+ car. I figured he was one hell of a driver. If I never remember another post. I'll always remember that one

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 5:39 pm

1.4 60fts are the ****.

Our shop drag car s14 2j th400 borg s480 7696 does 1.2's in the 60ft. broke the main caps and threw the crankshaft out the bottom of the motor 2 months ago its back together with some titan mains and l19 hardware. 2.24g's on the launch 1.9second 0-60mph times.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 6:31 pm

Is the shop in VA?

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:05 pm

yeah portsmouth va.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:42 pm

cham wrote:I always wondered back in the day, how did that person run a 10 with a 300hp+ car. I figured he was one hell of a driver. If I never remember another post. I'll always remember that one



Well, sh!t, you've been into 240s for as long as I have. That was over 10 years ago, wasn't it?

If I remember correctly, the SR car that hit 10's had right at 340whp. Am I remembering that right, Greaser?
Last edited by adamky on Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:51 pm

Lol. I've lurked around nico/240sx.org. me and Ivan had the same color s14. I had my engine built by the old top hat performance that had all the illegal sKY lines from motor x over in California. Back then Hrt performance and top hat was the only companies that was sponsors and offered short and long blocks. The engine was in 2 other s14's and sat for many yrs. Between people wrecking into my cars, buying a house and 2 more kids, I just turbo'd the motor this year

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:27 am

adamky wrote:
cham wrote:I always wondered back in the day, how did that person run a 10 with a 300hp+ car. I figured he was one hell of a driver. If I never remember another post. I'll always remember that one



Well, sh!t, you've been into 240s for as long as I have. That was over 10 years ago, wasn't it?

If I remember correctly, the SR car that hit 10's had right at 340whp. Am I remembering that right, Greaser?


yea was like 357 at 15psi

funny story. So i built a motor with some weisco " 9:1" pistons. Turns out those pistons where designed around a GTIR cyl head. When coupled with a rwd sr head it was 11:1 This is why that setup made so much power 12 psi made 320 15psi made 390 and 20psi made 450 on a HKS GT3037 (basically a garrett GT30). I torqued the arp headstuds to factory specs due to inexperience and while it held up during tuning, it didnt on the strip. the first 20psi pull it lifted the head, blew the coolant hoses off the rad, ballooned the rad, and sent coolant over and under and all over the car. track officials came and cussed me out for useing glycol in the coolant.

threw a stock motor in it was scared and tuned to only 15psi made like 360 and launched it at 6000rpm with the badass ductile iron slipper clutch

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Wed Nov 26, 2014 4:20 am

Lol.Damn thats mustang compression .now a days people wanna run high comp with e85 or race fuel. Back then Rick and the old school ka-t guys went big boost with low comp pistons. I jumped on the wagon and got 8:5. I bet your turbo was very responsive.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Wed Nov 26, 2014 7:38 pm

I've always noticed that the cams kick a little at low speed. Never thought that would cause an issue.

Very cool idea Greaser.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Wed Nov 26, 2014 9:09 pm

So your saying you noticed better cam performance at lower speeds when using higher compression pistons? This would help out on the bottom end that guys say they are losing with cams if so.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Thu Dec 04, 2014 7:37 pm

I placed my order already. Thank Greaser! You should notice a crisper throttle and better responsiveness with these tensioners for sure. Because they are locked. I build engines for a living and he is right most (if not all) manufactures have a lock on their hydraulic tensioners these days including domestics. Its a very nice upgrade and we should honestly reward Derek for this R & D. They are priced very well too IMHO.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Fri Dec 05, 2014 1:59 am

Hey Duncan from the old board. Have you guys lowered your boost and still making over 500hp since we have more tuning options,better turbos and e85? I think back then alot of guys used jwt tunes, high octane and aem. Could someone bring back the very inspirational bad ass official ka-t.org video and song

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:03 am

Found some more proof/ other people bending intake valves. Up in the for-sale section is another member selling some pistons with some marks on the intake side. This is exactly what my pistons looked like and i'm sure the other people out there that bent intake valves.
not my picture but iceman's.
Image

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Tue Jan 27, 2015 8:53 pm

Damn, I like this idea seems pretty badass.

What are your thoughts though on lets say premature valve guide wear? Could that also be a contributing factor along with oiling issues on just the valve train as a whole like you suggested in your initial post?

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Wed Jan 28, 2015 7:59 am

I don't understand your question about valve guide wear. elaborate on that one. The only oiling issue is that there is none during cranking and on a worn and sometimes even new, there's no oil in the check valve area to keep the tensioner from collapsing.

Re: KA24DE mechanically locked timing tensioners

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:12 pm

Greaser wrote:I don't understand your question about valve guide wear. elaborate on that one.



Well what I am saying is that theoretically speaking in MY mind, the valve guides could potentially wear down prematurely especially if they are of poor quality considering the fact that the valve open and close at a different rate than that originally engineered for from the factory. I can be wrong I am just asking that as a general question(s) since after all we are re-engineering these engine to some degree. I figured you might have some insight on it since you created this thread and have good ideas for improving things. I guess I could also be knit picking a bit since I am trying to avoid messing up a boosted motor.

Thanks in advance.
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