Water injection kit, super cheap? Free?

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Jordan Gladman
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

SleepyS-14 wrote:I got the AEM meth kit, All I can say is that it is well worth the price. Its a progressive pump, so you can set when it turns on, how much it injects, nozzle sizing, fail safes, plumping. IDK, I don't really see the upside to a build your own kit and the headaches when we have kits out there that do everything and for a very resonable price.
Its all relative... if you step back and look at a 10K$ build every part is going to look reasonably priced... if you put 50 different things on your ride that cost $300 each, you're looking at a lot of cash for a 20+ year old car.

When concidering you're paying $50 for materials and $250 for readily available R&D and install instructions... you're just buying the name and simple r&d they didnt develop.

You can easily put together a kit that has all the same features. You just need a couple LED's on your dash that will light up with the MAP sensor going open and the pump coming on. Its not really a head ache, its why most people build cars vs buying finished cars...
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Post by SleepyS-14 »

I can understand saving some money and building your own parts, I know, I do it almost everywhere I can. But I am just saying, with such a system that depends on it to work or your motor will run the risk of heavy damage, i really don't know if I would trust it. To each his own.
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

You can look at it 2 ways though... buying a kit you leave it in the hands of the manufacturer... when you do it yourself you know its done right.
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Post by Mark Washington »

Why not just do it the way the STI does it? simple and quick.
I like the Idia of a residual pressure valve
We would just use the window washer fluid reservoier.
I run it ust to the FMIC to bring down air intake temp.

I thought I would be safe doing it that way but I still have alot to research before I
run it to the throttle plate.
Thanks for the topic Jordan!
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Post by sdaigle240 »

jordan, strongly reccomend this read/skim for potential home brew meth setups....lots of info related to using fuel pump and injectors and some fo the problems.

EDIT whoops no link.....

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
Last edited by sdaigle240 on Thu May 13, 2010 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by emo_tactical9 »

Mark Washington wrote:Why not just do it the way the STI does it? simple and quick.
I like the Idia of a residual pressure valve
We would just use the window washer fluid reservoier.
I run it ust to the FMIC to bring down air intake temp.

I thought I would be safe doing it that way but I still have alot to research before I
run it to the throttle plate.
Thanks for the topic Jordan!
Are you talking about the factory intercooler sprayer on the STi?
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Post by Mark Washington »

Teah but I realize what you guys are doing is a seprate deal.
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Post by vestro »

sdaigle240 wrote:jordan, strongly reccomend this read/skim for potential home brew meth setups....lots of info related to using fuel pump and injectors and some fo the problems.

EDIT whoops no link.....

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
damn good info.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

I was partily relearning/ brushing up on my alunimun tig today, may try and get the tank done next week
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

sdaigle240 wrote:jordan, strongly reccomend this read/skim for potential home brew meth setups....lots of info related to using fuel pump and injectors and some fo the problems.

EDIT whoops no link.....

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/waterinjection.html
Great website, having read it, i'll probably pass on the used EFI parts... I might throw a pump in a bucket of water and leave it running for a couple weeks and see what happens.


Interesting...
When Honda was spending 500 millions dollars a year on their V6 Formula 1 Turbo motors they ran a mixture containing 84% Toluene (114 Octane). It has excellent anti-detonation properties and increases your octane rating. If you are running 92 octane pump gasoline and you add this stuff, your octane rating will be changed by the formula:

[(Quarts Gas x 92) + (Quarts Toluene x 114)] / (Quarts Gasoline + Quarts Toluene).

For example, if you add one quart Toluene to four gallons of gasoline, your Octane will increase onr point from 92 to 93. Add two quarts to four gallons and you get an Octane rating of 100. For you high boost junkies this is something to ponder. You can buy the product in hardware stores. Xylene has a higher flashpoint (less volatile) and has and octane rating of 117.
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

After reading through the rest of that guys "write up" I saw that he was selling pumps for $650.... tends to skew his judgement towards using EFI components. Also he was talking about using fuel injectors to direct inject water by pulsing the injectors. I would think with a pre-throttle body setup that is just coming on and going off, you're going to tax the injectors a lot less...
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Post by sdaigle240 »

yo you got me digging! not much info on the web.

this post was informational and funny.
__________
You are correct, toluene C7H8 (114 octane) and xylene C8H10 (117 octane) make perfectly fine octane enhancers when mixed in the proper ratios. Up to 25% for street use is fine. Both are 100% hydrocarbons; their byproducts are water and CO2. Not "tarry deposits" lol

X gallons @ 93 octane + X gallons @ 117 octane = (X*93)+(X*117)/(X+X)

8 gallons of 93 plus 1 gallon of 117 equals 9 gallons of 95.6 octane

Toluene is hard to find becasue it is used in the production of Methamphetamine... mmm... meth... Ask the folks at Lowes for a gallon and they look at you funny. Xylene is higher in octane and can be found at paint stores by the gallon.

Good luck and NO huffing!
ouch, 30 bucks a gallon
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

You guys must have much tougher laws in the states, I can walk into any home depot and grab a gallon of methanol or toluene without question...
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Post by Mark Washington »

So I gathered up some parts for a meth/water kit.
1. stock winshield reservoier and pump.
2.Summitt -4an check valve
3.plumbing & hardware.

I know Im not close but I use that as a IC sprayer for now.

I also have a cold fuzion N02 kit I plan on usind C02 or somthing on.
I have more research before I get into it though, I want tio learn how people spool the turbo with N02 cause I will be doing it in the furure, It helps to know what your doing though amd I have know idia yet. I hve used this kit on a carb aplication and think I
can use it on this later.
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

You dont need nitrous to spool your turbo for your application. CO sprayer kit isnt a bad idea though... i've always wanted to do one, but it seems excessive to mount a bottle, run lines etc just to spray your intercooler....
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Post by Jackasknissan »

well i just picked up my material for the tank
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Post by Mark Washington »

The lines dont go far and it helped before.

This is for my future setup 850+cc EMS GT35R
My turbo made 14 psi at 2700 on the last setup and now I have a smaller exhaust housing
so it should be a little quicker.
I think N02 will help on the new setup, but want to find out how to do it the best way first.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

a gt35r isnt all that big, nice street size.
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Post by TinyT »

Mark Washington wrote: I think N02 will help on the new setup
nitrogen dioxide will spool that snail like it aint no thang :wink:
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Post by Mark Washington »

I love S-car-go :lol:

I am trying to find a rebuild kit for my GT35R its a Greddy,
Im not into lag quite yet and dont want to re-learn how to handle the car/break more stuff quite yet so that will be done in the winter maybe.
My tranny has taken a likin but I cant justify the trans swap quite yet.
Props to all of you with the Z32 and Z31 conversion, I am a adapter plate and a 350Z
clutch away from that myself.
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Post by TinyT »

Mark Washington wrote:I love S-car-go :lol:

I am trying to find a rebuild kit for my GT35R its a Greddy,
Im not into lag quite yet and dont want to re-learn how to handle the car/break more stuff quite yet so that will be done in the winter maybe.
My tranny has taken a likin but I cant justify the trans swap quite yet.
Props to all of you with the Z32 and Z31 conversion, I am a adapter plate and a 350Z
clutch away from that myself.
how does this have anything to do with this thread? like a little thread jack is ok, but come on
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Post by Mark Washington »

I srayed wayyyyyyyyy off topic.


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Post by Jackasknissan »

heres a few pics of the tank i finished up

not to baddly for having maybe 5 hours of playing on the tig.

i was having a issue with having a leak in the gas line, so there is some black specs, an that is why.

Image

Image

Image

Image


Image


it has a 2 gallon capacity which should be plenty.

it is pressure tested, and 100% leak proof

still deciding whether or not to use the oem pump.


edit :
this was all made from shop scrap/ i have about 8$ invested into the tank so far.
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Post by koukidriver »

Looks good to me I need to start a welding project but I will leave tig for last until I master mig first.
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

You planning to mount the tank in your trunk jack?
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Post by savatoge »

turboholic wrote:Yes there is alot of debate over there on running water pre turbo. It's hard to argue with the results the guys are getting and they show pictures of their compressor wheels before and after and there is no damage. They have been running these setups for years.

They say it allows for better atomization.

Anyways. Interesting ideas.
Yeah, there really isn't any debate on whether or not pre-turbo injection is effective or not. However, it has to be implemented correctly to maximize effectiveness, as well as to prevent damage to the compressor wheel.

In order to produce the proper droplet size, a small jet, preferably with a narrow-angled dispersion pattern and high pressure (100+ PSI) is required to get the water as finely misted as possible, somewhere on the order of 40 microns or lower. The objective is not to introduce the majority of the water/meth injection at this point...only a small fraction of the total flow rate required needs to be introduced pre-turbo. The jet needs to be positioned close to the compressor inlet, where the fog can be directly aimed at the compressor wheel nut...by introducing the fog here, a higher proportion is consumed at a point on the compressor wheel with lower relative rotational speed. Also, care has to be made to not point the jet to where some of the fog could possibly make contact with the tubing wall and allow the fog to condense into droplets, which would then contact the compressor blade tips, where relative rotational speed is the highest.

Turbos normally operate under adiabatic compression, as a gas is compressed, it gets hot. When employing forced induction, especially in high boost scenarios, we need to get rid of the heated charge air to avoid detonation...in addition, it takes work for the turbine shaft to perform the heating, so we are losing efficiency.

Introduce the correct amount of water injection and compression begins to approach isothermal...we change the pressure-temperature profile inside the compressor wheel itself. The water droplets absorb the heat produce by the compression of the air and we can achieve increased mass flow at the same pressure ratio. The speed of sound of the air in the wheel would also be affected, resulting in a change in the mach number at the wheel tips...most likely altering the surge and the choke limits. As a result the process is more efficient and we can enjoy either:

- additional boost at an equal amount of exhaust flow

or

- less exhaust flow to produce an equal amount of boost

Water by itself has a very high latent heat of vaporisation, with a poor saturation partial pressure...only so much can evaporate before the air is at 100% relative humidity. Any additional water droplets in the air will not provide a cooling effect until compressed in the cylinder. But Dalton's law of partial pressures says that if you add a second fluid, ie. methanol, even though the air is saturated with water vapor, the methanol is unaware that water content is maxed and the methanol evaporates into the air as well.

Pre-turbo injection changes the operating point to the left on the compressor map. Because of this, you typically employ pre-turbo injection when we know we are starting to max out a turbo...we don't want to use it while on the left side of the map and operate under compressor surge. Also, we are only introducing a small amount of the total injection flow rate pre-turbo and only under higher boost scenarios, so condensation in the intercooler should be of little concern.

Bottom line is that with a proper mix ratio, you can cool the air to slightly below ambient temp AND increase the mass flow through the compressor essentially making it act like a bigger turbo than without pre-turbo injection. A win-win situation.
Last edited by savatoge on Wed Jun 02, 2010 1:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by sdaigle240 »

I love reading educated posts.
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Post by Jordan Gladman »

I cant stand that japanese girls stomach... so bloated looking. :roll:
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Post by savatoge »

It's your thread...easily fixed. :roll:
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Post by emo_tactical9 »

Jordan Gladman wrote:I cant stand that japanese girls stomach... so bloated looking. :roll:
Haha. I can't stand all the stupid animated gifs of asian girls doing stupid things that are "cute."
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