Welding Cast Iron/Cast Steel; questions/results

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(manifolds, chassis, personal projects, MIG, TIG, etc)
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Welding Cast Iron/Cast Steel; questions/results

Post by eazye2000 »

Ok, so I haven't welded cast iron/steel in some time. I learned with a stick welder, and I really didn't retain much of the info since I was never any good at it.

With that said, my main objective is to cut and weld my front spindle/knuckles where the outer tie rod connects to them. If you're new to the mod, it's to get a little more steering angle out of your car.
You basically cut about 3/4 of an inch of length out of there, and weld it back together. I'm not looking to go crazy, and drop it or anything for the bump steer yet... Just a normal, cut and weld back together kind of thing.

Ok, so the machines I own.
-Lincoln 3200HD 110v MIG that is 135 amps of pissed off power. I've used it for just about everything up until this point..
-Miller Syncrowave 180SD that I've been playing around with practicing on aluminum. I have TIG and ARC leads for this machine.

I would really like to TIG this together since I have a bit more control in that area. Plus it's got more power to dig deep. I plan on cutting, and creating a little 'V' to weld and make a few passes into.
Whichever machine I use, I would like to make a few passes . Root and stitch it? Or go back and forth across the seam?
Also, what filler/wire should I go with. I think I have 70s-2 or maybe it's 70s-6. I don't remember. I want whatever is needed for the cast stuff.
Should I pre-heat the dog out of it? And let it cool slowly?

Sorry for the crap question. I don't have another set of S13 spindles to play with, or I would do the typical 'trial and error' approach that I'm used to.

Thanks guys,
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Last edited by eazye2000 on Mon Aug 16, 2010 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

personally id use a tig and some cast iron rod.( not sure on what)

and preheat the spindle, to 350 ish, maintail the heat for minute or so, thenweld it, then post heat after for a bit, and let it cool down slowly.
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Post by dakar318 »

all the ones i have seen done are usually with a tig...

i think your kinda risking it with a stick or maybe even a mig.
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Post by eazye2000 »

Jackasknissan wrote:personally id use a tig and some cast iron rod.( not sure on what)
and preheat the spindle, to 350 ish, maintail the heat for minute or so, thenweld it, then post heat after for a bit, and let it cool down slowly.
That's pretty much what I was thinking. Preheat, weld, then slowly cool.
dakar318 wrote:all the ones i have seen done are usually with a tig...

i think your kinda risking it with a stick or maybe even a mig.
Well, I was asking what people have personally done. I have a TIG, a Syncrowave is a squarewave machine too. So it will do Positive, Negative, or A/C. Plus it will ARC if I wanted it to. And I have the piss pot MIG at my disposal.

I'm still digging around for some information. Filler rod isn't a big deal, they have just about everything at the local shop. I just need to find out what tungsten, and what setting (positive electrode/negative electrode).

Thanks for the feedback, on to search some more.
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Post by 96silvia »

found this hope it helps.

To Heat, or not to Heat

In general, it is preferred to weld cast iron with preheat--and lots of it. But, another way to successfully weld cast iron is to keep it cool--not cold, but cool. Below, both methods will be described. However, once you select a method, stick with it. Keep it hot, or keep it cool, but don't change horses in the middle of the stream!

Welding Techniques with Preheat

Preheating the cast iron part before welding will slow the cooling rate of the weld, and the region surround the weld. It is always preferred to heat the entire casting, if possible. Typical preheat temperatures are 500-1200 degrees F. Don’t heat over 1400 degrees F since that will put the material into the critical temperature range. Preheat the part slowly and uniformly.

Weld using a low current, to minimize admixture, and residual stresses. In some cases, it may be necessary to restrict the welds to small, approximately 1-inch long segments to prevent the build up of residual stresses that can lead to cracking. Peening of weld beads can be helpful in this regard as well.

After welding, allow the part to slowly cool. Wrapping the casting in an insulating blanket, or burying it in dry sand, will help slow cooling rates, and reduce cracking tendencies.

Welding Techniques without Preheat

The size of the casting, or other circumstances, may require that the repair be made without preheat. When this is the case, the part needs to be kept cool, but not cold.

Raising the casting temperature to 100 degrees F is helpful. If the part is on an engine, it may be possible to run it for a few minutes to obtain this temperature. Never heat the casting so hot that you cannot place your bare hand on it.

Make short, approximately 1” long welds. Peening after welding is important with this technique. Allow the weld and the casting to cool. Do not accelerate the rate of cooling with water or compressed air. It may be possible to weld in another area of the casting while the previous weld cools. All craters should be filled. Whenever possible, the beads should be deposited in the same direction, and it is preferred that the ends of parallel beads not line up with each other.

Sealing Cracks

Because of the nature of cast iron, tiny cracks tend to appear next to the weld even when good procedures are followed. If the casting must be water tight, this can be a problem. However, leaking can usually be eliminated with some sort of sealing compound or they may rust shut very soon after being returned to service.
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Post by eazye2000 »

Awesome stuff. I hadn't stumbled upon that one yet. I was unaware of a 'cold' technique.

Still digging. This somewhat makes me paranoid about doing this. I am assuming a MAP torch will get her up to temp, and making empty passes with the TIG will help heat it up a little more.
Just need to find the +/- settings and filler rods now. I have read mixed things, so I'm going a little nuts right now.
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Post by iceman1357 »

I'll try and ask my buddy about this

I am running modded knuckles. I got them off a friend who got the car from a friend who did the mod.

MY friend ran them for a season and the guy before that run them for 2 years so yeah they have held up really well.

I'll try and get some pics up as well.
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Post by eazye2000 »

^ Hey thanks man. Any info would be sweet. Particularly pertaining to the modified steering knuckles, since that's exactly what I'm doing.

Now that I got to digging around, I think our knuckles are Cast Steel, not Cast Iron... Found them to both be two totally different animals.
If they are Cast Steel, then welding them is much easier.

So I'm not sure which this pertains to, but I found that preheating, and using A/C current, you use an aluminum bronze filler rod. That was something that they said works out well.

Also, I've seen that with the Cast Steel, people use 308, and 309 stainless filler to get the job done effectively. Particularly on axle perch relocations and steering mods on the 4x4 trucks. Still done with preheating and such.

I'm still open for suggestions. I'm about to hit the gym, and have a night of drinking like a fish. I might rant after this post... lol

And I'm also looking for an extra set of spindles/knuckles for an S13 if anyone has some I can tinker with. Willing to pay.
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Post by nelson240sx »

When i weld cast i put it in the over and heat it up to 350-400 degrees then once up to temp weld it and place it back in the over for about 30 min. Then turn the oven off and let it stay in the oven as it cools slowly over a few hours. I havent had anything crack yet but, with that said i havent had to weld any thing that will take as much stress and the tie rod arm on the knuckle.

Pics of PBM modified knuckles on my buddies car.
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Post by eazye2000 »

I've seen those on my searching adventures. Those look really nice, and durable. As well as pretty adjustable with the two holes. If I could find those pieces, I would try to weld those on. I just don't have the tools to drill the tapered holes....

My mind is about numb. I tend to overthink things I suppose. Still looking though.
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Post by eazye2000 »

I called around to a few friends asking for some advice. One of them does the local circle track, and said you can buy a bit that drills and tapers those holes for the 'DIY' spindles on the roundy round cars.
I'm going to see what I can dig up on that.
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Post by Jackasknissan »

tapered holes are usually done initailly with 2-3 diifferent sized bits in steps ( roughly form the taper.

then they are machine taper reemed to the final dimensions.
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Post by eazye2000 »

^ Yeah, I didn't find anything on the 'bits' he was talking about. I'm assuming it's something to do with machining on a higher level than I can achieve on my drill press....

I'm still trying to source some extra spindles to give it a go'. I still think the spindles are cast steel, and should be a breeze to weld. But I'm going to get a spare set just in case.
Junk yards were closed today. So no luck until Monday.
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Post by ak_slick »

Preheat and post heat... the whole area around welding NEEDS to be glowing red. Use a V cut for sure.

Don't even try cold. If it gets hot enough it will be strong enough either way. TIG is easier and better I would recommend that. I cannot remember what filler we used.

I have one done with a TIG and one of mine was done with a MIG for testing purposes.

The spindles are cast steel not cast iron.

Pics so you can see. I can't give you the dimensions I used for making the spindles, but I highly recommend driftworks forum those European's really know their stuff when it comes to suspension.

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I think I have a better picture of what the spindles mod did for me but these are decent.
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Post by eazye2000 »

Thanks for the confirmation of them being Cast Steel. That really makes me feel better about doing this.

Heat, no problem. Just trying to see what filler to use now. Some things I have read, pointed towards 308L and 309L. They said the 309L would probably be better since it has a touch of carbon in it...? Something along those lines though.

As far as measurements, most of what I have found said 3/4 to 1 inch cut out. I'm not looking for anything crazy, I just want a bit more angle. I think this spindle mod, with some inner tie rod spacers should work nicely.
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Post by eazye2000 »

Still no luck with finding an extra set of spindles to mess around with.

But I did notch out, and gusset my front lower control arms. With that mod, and putting in some spacers on the inner tie rods, I get some serious angle already. I'll get pics of that asap.
But here's what I did to the control arms. Just really itchin' to do the spindle mod. Gotta find some...

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Post by Mark Washington »

Thats what Im talking about!!! :D

I didn't get the PBM knuckles cause I had custom tie rods allready and didn't want to by stock.
So I cut the bumpstop off ot the LCA and used a 1/8'' aluminum stock with sheetmelal skrews to hold them.

For the knuckle, I just drilled a 12mm hole an inch closer to the LCA. The old nub was just cut of. When I go fast in dangerous places, I think about how week it is now, I didn't do any welding on my knuckle (YET)
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Post by EviltoM »

You need to use less heat and slow your rate of travel for your welds if those are tig welds we're looking at.

Use 99% nickel rod for welding cast. Tig is great for welding cast if you do it right, you wont have to preheat. I never preheat but I have a lot of experience welding it. It will pick up heat through welding along the way but if you do it too fast you will experience cracking.
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Post by TinyT »

EviltoM wrote:You need to use less heat and slow your rate of travel for your welds if those are tig welds we're looking at.

Use 99% nickel rod for welding cast. Tig is great for welding cast if you do it right, you wont have to preheat. I never preheat but I have a lot of experience welding it. It will pick up heat through welding along the way but if you do it too fast you will experience cracking.
iv heard aluminum bronze rod on a/c works great
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Post by eazye2000 »

Thanks Tom. They looked good at first, then I went over the welds again to flatten them out so I didn't have to grind on them. I wanted a perfect right angle right there, but it didn't work out that way.
I'm still learning, so I got some practice to do. But I appreciate the feedback. I'm learning every time I pick that damned thing up.
I'll hit up the local airgas to see what rods they got. I'll mention the two that Tiny and Tom mentioned and see what they say down there. I would hope they know what they're talking about...
And if anyone has some spindles, let me know. I'll pick them up from you if the price is right.
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Post by EviltoM »

Wel heres a pic of a cast exhaust manifold on a DSM I welded a t3 flange on for a holset turbo and a stainless elbow for a wastegate. Both welds are holding up great with no bad signs. They werent preheated either.

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Post by Mark Washington »

Nice WG, :D

I want to beef up my knuckles.
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Post by 240cp »

hey guys i see that ur looking for a tapered bit. try this

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Tapered-B ... 29005.html

might b what u looking for
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Post by eazye2000 »

That looks pretty sweet. Does anyone know what degree our outer tie rods are? I'm gonna do some research.
I still want to weld on my spindles though. I can't get enough of this DIY stuff lol
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Post by eazye2000 »

So I sourced a set of front spindles and control arms finally. In the next week or two, I will see what I can do to try and get this ball rolling. I'll have to use my car as a reference, and see how it pans out.
I also talked to a guy here at work, and he said he's always heated, and bent spindles to do whatever he's needed. He's a driver down at our local circle track.

Anyways, I'll post up with some results. And I would still like some feedback on what filler rod to use with this cast steel stuff. I was thinking some 309L for the carbon.
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Post by starclassic03 »

I have an extra set laying around should you find your self in need of them.
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Post by eazye2000 »

^ I appreciate the offer. If I mess up this set, I'll get in touch. I don't mind covering shipping. It just sucks that people want like 50 bucks a piece for them normally.
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Post by trk240sx »

http://www.xkut-reamers.com/servlet/the ... Categories for a tapered bit

My Dad has one, dont think he got it here though. Try Stock Car Products, in Richmond VA. Also, Franklin Racing(quick change rearends) used to make a bolt on steering arm. Circle track guys have alot of stuff that could be used, do some searches. I have also heard that you should weld cast with a Nickel rod??
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Post by je_decoy »

For the welding part preheat leave ur amps higher and move faster then post heat don't do empty welds use filler unless just tacking it will give you a much stronger and cleaner weld then turning ur heat down and going slow using dc neg run ur amps around 150 and ul get good penetration have ur tungston ground to around a 60 degree angle look up walking the cup technique on the miller website maybe on youtube as for filler the miller website has a chart for all types of metal and filler to use on it just make sure u keep the weld area as clean as u can with tig that's the most important thing it can never be to clean good luck hope this helps
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Post by eazye2000 »

Thanks for the advice. I still haven't done the spindles as of yet. I have an extra pair here, but I got my car all buttoned up. I don't have any way to mock up and make measurements and stuff.
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