Centrifugal blowers, Vortech V5-F

For those other forced induction brothers
Post Reply
User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Centrifugal blowers, Vortech V5-F

Post by Jordan Gladman » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:44 pm

I spotted a Vortech V5 supercharger on ebay with super low mileage off an SVT focus, they only make 260whp on the focus but can make more with different pulley setups etc. Id like to build a reliable intercooled SOHC-R.

Only thing is they are shaft driven, Im sure I can figure out a way to drive the charger directly, just wondering if anyone has done this. Does the charger require a bearing to take off the belt tension load or is it as simple as mounting a pulley to the input shaft.

Anyone played with one of these chargers?

Shaft driven V5

Image
Last edited by Jordan Gladman on Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Thu Mar 17, 2011 10:59 pm

Tried a couple different search terms on google images and found this... looks like you can just bolt on a pulley, this looks like the same charger, you can see the 3 bolt flange behind the pulley that the shaft driven housing mounts too.

Image

I'll post a few pics when I get the charger.
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

User avatar
tom550
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Contact:

Post by tom550 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 8:31 am

Why a Centrifugal Supercharger?

Why not a roots?
Image

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Fri Mar 18, 2011 4:31 pm

Centrifugal is tidier and easier to impliment. Makes running an intercooler 10X easier. You also dont have to do any intake manifold work. A centrifugal super is essentially a belt driven turbo. It has an internal gear set that will multiply the engine RPMs to a speed that is suitable for creating boost.
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

User avatar
tom550
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Contact:

Post by tom550 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:03 pm

yea but why have boost slowly go up with rpm rather than having it all there at once.
Image

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:44 pm

There is a place for both types. The centrifugal has advantages and disadvantages. Im looking to do something super clean, simple and light weight. The centrifugal also has better output up top, you can balance the bottom end power by overdriving the charger a bit. I think this style charger will be a nice half way between a turbo and a root charger for bottom and top end power. It should be noted the guys going with the Xterra charger setup will have nice bottom end and can expect 250whp. This charger is supposedly good for 500, I'll have to check the thing over a bit better when I get it, but it should be a pretty decent powerhouse.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/product.php?p=13

I had a Mach M112 charger, but its was a tank and would have required extensive retrofitting, and wouldnt have been easy to intercool. The best we can do for fuel up here in Canada is 94 octane and I've read a lot of negative information about running meth with roots chargers and having it remove the teflon coatings etc.

I anticipate mounting the charger will only take a couple hours and it should be pretty low maintenance and reliable. If it sucks ass I'll just sell the setup on ebay and go back to turbo :D



Heres a quick little read.
Roots Type Supercharging
The Roots Type Supercharger is the first style supercharger that was ever used and can be dated back to the 1880s when the Roots brothers designed it as an air conveyor for mine shafts. Roots blowers act like air pumps (not compressors), and In general, Roots blowers have a two or three lobe rotor design, depending on the size of the case. Roots blowers will give you positive pressure to your motor from just a crack of the throttle, and will give all that they have to offer at full throttle no matter what the rpm of the motor. Roots Type Superchargers may look awesome hanging out of the hood and are great for those looking for drastic power increases at lower RPMs. Roots blowers are also extremely reliable and require very little maintenance, which is why Ford, GM, Mercedes, Jaguar, and Austin Martin have all featured Roots blowers as original equipment on select high performance vehicles.

Recommended Usage:
Street Use - Towing - Extreme Drag Racing - Show Vehicles


Positive Points:
1) Boost throughout the entire RPM range, right off of idle
2) Highest Potential for Gain (A must-have for all-out drag racing)
3) Excellent Reliability
4) Great Appearance & Stature (Most common supercharger type for show vehicles)

Negative Points:
1) Sometimes Violent Throttle Response
2) Lower boost ratings at higher RPMs
3) Higher Than Normal Discharge Temperatures
4) Lengthy installation times


Centrifugal Type Supercharging
Centrifugal Supercharging compresses the air inside the case of the supercharger using an impeller. Then, discharges the air out of a scroll to the motor. This design is similar to turbo-charging except for centrifugal superchargers don't use the exhaust to build pressure, they use a belt, driven by the crank pulley to spin the impeller. Centrifugal supercharging is definitely one of the more user-friendly ways to supercharge your motor. The ability to change the impeller sizes and to spin the impeller at different speeds creates a more inexpensive way to have flexibility in your power curve. Centrifugal superchargers have become the standard for street use and light-duty racing and far outsell all other types of superchargers.


Recommended Usage:
Street Use - Commercial Use - Road Racing - Drag Racing


Positive Points:
1) Lots of Flexibility for Power Adjustments
2) Lower Discharge Temperatures
3) Great Reliability
4) Easy to install

Negative Points:
1) Not as much power at low RPMs as Roots or Screw type superchargers
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

TryingToTurbo
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2369
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:24 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Post by TryingToTurbo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:28 am

Just a couple of key points I want to add jus for reference. Centrifugal is an option I seriously considered and would be really cool. I rode in a 400 hp s2k with a rotrex kit and boost felt instant and it was very powerful.

Key points:
-A roots blower is SIMPLE to install on the ka, so not a disadvantage like noted above
-240whp was achieved at stock boost on a roots, 300whp is realistic with meth and higher boost pulley
-Top end power is not an issue with with roots on the ka (see my dyno)
-roots MUST have meth on ka when running 10+ psi due to lack of intercooling
-traditional intercooler is not an option for the roots blower, a heat exchanger is the only alternative like on a supercharged cobra, but would not be an easy solution.


I'm really looking forward to seeing this get done. It's still an option I'd like to see explored, and I would have probably tried it had I not bought the ka-r kit.
Built KA24DE: Wiseco 9.0:1 | Eagle H Beams | ARP Head & Main Studs | BC 272s & Springs | Supertech Valves
Boost Source: Under Construction

Image

Thinking about E-Mance? Think twice and read this:
viewtopic.php?t=45057&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

User avatar
tom550
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Contact:

Post by tom550 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:12 am

Or a twin screw To not have the heat.

But that install should be pretty easy.

But I definitely want to see dyno results to compare to the roots.
Image

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Sat Mar 19, 2011 3:29 pm

TryingToTurbo wrote:Just a couple of key points I want to add jus for reference. Centrifugal is an option I seriously considered and would be really cool. I rode in a 400 hp s2k with a rotrex kit and boost felt instant and it was very powerful.

Key points:
-A roots blower is SIMPLE to install on the ka, so not a disadvantage like noted above
-240whp was achieved at stock boost on a roots, 300whp is realistic with meth and higher boost pulley
-Top end power is not an issue with with roots on the ka (see my dyno)
-roots MUST have meth on ka when running 10+ psi due to lack of intercooling
-traditional intercooler is not an option for the roots blower, a heat exchanger is the only alternative like on a supercharged cobra, but would not be an easy solution.


I'm really looking forward to seeing this get done. It's still an option I'd like to see explored, and I would have probably tried it had I not bought the ka-r kit.
A roots blower is by no means simple. Requires pretty extensive disection of a motor when compared to bolting on a turbo manifold and downpipe with some IC piping. The kits now available make things a lot easier, but it still requires pulling apart the intake manifold and running custom TB brackets and cables etc. The absense of intercooling makes things more simple, but to truly compare the applications, you have to compare the roots system assuming you're adding an intercooler. When I say "top end" power, im talking in the 400-500whp range. Anything that makes less than 300whp above 5000rpm lack top end, it all depends who you're asking. Like you've said the lack of intercooler and availability of air/water intercooler setups limit the roots chargers to OEM charged power levels, not to say 250whp is weak but compared to 400-500whp turbo setups, I think it would get old fast.

I dont mean to be argumentative, but I think when people see what I rig up for a bracket, we'll be laughing. My plan is to run the charger off the AC pulley on the crank and make a 2 plate bracket system so it can be tensioned similar to the alternator. Once I draw up, cut and bend the 2 plates, it will be as simple as ordering the right belt and bolting it on. I may actually use an old SR sidemount to weld up an air/water intercooler. That way I can have a heat exchanger on the front of the car and small resevoir under the hood to dump ice in when Im drag racing.

Dont get too excited about seeing dyno numbers anytime to soon, I dont plan on finishing this build til next winter. I still need to drop the subframes, strip the shell and spot weld it, install a cage, and rebuild a motor for it etc etc.
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

adamky
SuperMod
Posts: 3511
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 6:40 am
Location: Louisville, KY

Post by adamky » Sat Mar 19, 2011 6:50 pm

Jordan Gladman wrote:I've read a lot of negative information about running meth with roots chargers and having it remove the teflon coatings etc.
According to Snow performance, that's not true. They're one of the biggest Water/meth injection manufacturers in the industry. I trust what they say.

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_typ ... e=gasoline
16. Where can I mount the nozzle?

Pre- or Post- Supercharger/Turbocharger?

• Centrifugal/Turbo: (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Rotrex, etc.) Never mount an injector nozzle before a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum, as well as serve to reduce the atomization. Instead of a fine mist, the compressor housing will create a river of fluid along the outside wall that means we get less benefit and use more fluid.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.

Not that it matters because you are obviously not gong with a roots charger, but I just wanted to point that out. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I know I'm not the only one who has thought of doing a similar project,
Last edited by adamky on Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Wiseco/Eagle, JWT S1 cams, BC valve springs, PT5857, ID1700 injectors, SR20DET ECU w/ Nismotronic, COP conversion with LS ignition coils, etc, etc...
--> YouTube channel --> my build thread
Image

User avatar
tom550
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Contact:

Post by tom550 » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:18 pm

if it all works out would you start selling those brackets?
im sure if people see good results with those superchargers then they would be willing to buy that bracket.

i was searching around but i couldnt find a answer. with the roots it has a power level you need to be able to make to power it. but i cant find one for the vortechs or Centrifugal in general. i would think they would require way less. but how much less? i wanted to know what power these things can make on our ka's.
Image

TryingToTurbo
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2369
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2007 8:24 pm
Location: Raleigh, NC

Post by TryingToTurbo » Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:23 pm

adamky wrote:
Jordan Gladman wrote:I've read a lot of negative information about running meth with roots chargers and having it remove the teflon coatings etc.
According to Snow performance, that's not true. They're one of the biggest Water/meth injection manufacturers in the industry. I trust what they say.

http://www.snowperformance.net/faqs_typ ... e=gasoline
16. Where can I mount the nozzle?

Pre- or Post- Supercharger/Turbocharger?

• Centrifugal/Turbo: (Procharger, Vortech, Paxton, Powerdyne, Rotrex, etc.) Never mount an injector nozzle before a centrifugal supercharger or turbocharger compressor. Sending fluid through the compressor wheel that spins anywhere from 50,000rpm to 250,000rpm can erode the leading edges of the fine aluminum, as well as serve to reduce the atomization. Instead of a fine mist, the compressor housing will create a river of fluid along the outside wall that means we get less benefit and use more fluid.
• Positive Displacement Supercharger: Roots style (B&M, Eaton, Magnuson, etc.) or twin screw (Lysholm, Kenne Bell, Whipple, etc.) Mounting the nozzle before this style of blower is perfectly safe and actually provides some additional benefits. The small amount of water-methanol fluid isn’t harmful to any rotor seals or surfaces or coatings, and it helps to seal the clearances and condense the air some more, resulting in a more efficient output. Additionally, it keeps the rotors and housing MUCH cooler, which reduces heat transfer to the rest of the intake and air charge.

Not that it matters because you are obviously not gong with a roots charger, but I just wanted to point that out. Looking forward to seeing how this turns out. I know I'm not the only one who has thought of doing a similar project,
Agreed. I actually noticed a 2psi increase running meth. And show no signs of teflon wear.
Built KA24DE: Wiseco 9.0:1 | Eagle H Beams | ARP Head & Main Studs | BC 272s & Springs | Supertech Valves
Boost Source: Under Construction

Image

Thinking about E-Mance? Think twice and read this:
viewtopic.php?t=45057&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:46 am

Assuming the teflon/meth issue is fine, the roots is more attractive, but you cant beat the maintenance free operation of an intercooled supercharger system.

Tom, Im not sure what you mean by "with the roots it has a power level you need to be able to make to power it. ".. the roots charger is supposed to make boost right out of idle, depending on how you gear that pulley system on the centrifugal charger you're going to reach full boost anywhere from 2-4000rpm. It all just depends how far you wind it up. I will likely gear my pulleys to max out the supercharger at 7000rpm.

Once I have a design for brackets completed I would sell them, I likely wouldnt advertise them but if someone came across them and wanted them, Id sell a set. I doubt that many people will want to run them. At the end of the day, I honestly believe a turbo setup is superior but the SC will be a fun thing to try. A turbo basically runs off of free energy and can be wound up a lot faster where an SC is limtied to engine RPMs. What will be nice is not constantly having to look after exhaust manifold gaskets and bolts backing off and heat cooking out the engine bay.

You can run a cheap header and light weight exhaust. You have stock or cooler than, engine temps and a super clean engine bay.
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

User avatar
tom550
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Contact:

Post by tom550 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 1:17 pm

oh sorry i ment what power it takes to spin it.

like the eaton m90 at 10psi at 20000rpm takes 40hp.
Image
Image

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:20 pm

It would probably be less, but its hard to say. A turbo robs a certain amount of power to operate as well, it really doesnt matter how much power it takes to turn. Its all about final RWHP.
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

User avatar
tom550
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2100
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 10:02 pm
Location: Albuquerque, NM
Contact:

Post by tom550 » Mon Mar 21, 2011 11:02 pm

true but it will change how much boost you need to set it to to get to a power level. im sure they take way less but im just guessing
Image

KA4LIFE
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Posts: 255
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:48 pm
Location: New Jersey

Post by KA4LIFE » Thu Apr 14, 2011 9:25 pm

Hows this project coming along jordan?
Soon to be KA24ER!

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Fri Apr 15, 2011 8:05 am

I've had the blower for a couple weeks now, Im keeping my eyes pealed for a clean KA to tear down and build up. I have a core but its missing a lot of components.

Im in the middle of aquiring a new shop so its going to be a few months before everything is up and running smooth so I might not have any exciting updates for a while :cry:
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

motorsporttc
NooB
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:30 am

Post by motorsporttc » Thu May 26, 2011 3:57 pm

planning on a selling a kit if it turns out well?

User avatar
Jordan Gladman
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 3254
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:14 pm
Location: Abbotsford, BC

Post by Jordan Gladman » Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:48 am

Probably going to shelf this idea for a while. If anyone is interested in the charger drop me a PM.

Mommy needs a need car. :x
WWW.GLADFAB.COM SOHC Turbo Manifolds

Post Reply