BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

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Soekraights
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BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

So I figured I'd get this thread started in a moment of spare time since it has crossed the point from this would be cool to this WILL be awesome. First off a warning: this will be a slow build as it is primarily funded by irresponsible allocation of a portion of my student loan funds.

Current Rough Out of Setup:
(* Denotes Already Owned)
Walbro 255*
Tomei AFPR*
Godspeed Intake*
Q45 TB
M90 from Supercoupe*
MS3X* running Speed Density, Full Sequential Spark/Spray
GM sensors to complement what the MS3X likes*
DIYAutotune Trigger Wheel in Stock Dizzy*
IGN-1A x4 for a Coil-Near-Plug setup*
Quest Alt*, Bracket already fabbed to relocate to old A/C spot
Water to Air Intercooler with over-sized heat exchanger
Sprayer system for the heat exchanger triggered with a CLT through the MS3X (Medium TBD)

What I have as far as pictures to add will come shortly as my shop is not on the property I live on.


The current piece of the puzzle I'm trying to fit is injector size. Between a few of the online calculators they have come back with anything between 6XXcc and 7XXcc. So I'm wondering if a set of 800cc Low-Z injectors would be large enough to leave me tuning room for power in the future but not to large to keep from going below the 1.5ms pulse margin at idle.

This is my first delve into a project like this so all constructive criticism/help/insight is appreciated. This has always seemed to me to be humble and helpful forum hence the reason I finally pulled the trigger on an account after years of being Guest in the "viewing thread" feed. I look forward to being a part of it.
Last edited by Soekraights on Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

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Adrenalin
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Adrenalin »

Sounds like it will be a great build.

Sorry can't help with the injector size question.

Question with the water to air. Why are you running water sprayers on the secondary heat exchanger? Would this not only be required if the face area was on the small size?

I considered water to air cooling for my sc build but chose the fmic path (yet to be fitted), as i have a remote mount sc running in blow through. I'll be keen to see how your setup looks and works.

Keen to see some picks.
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supakat
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by supakat »

What hp are you looking for?
12.96 @ 116.36 - 2.1 60ft - 11/2011
13.1 @ 114 - 2.3 60ft - 8/2012
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Soekraights
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

Adrenalin- First off I had read your thread previously and am anxious to see it to fruition, particularly the magnetic clutch/bypass system you're working on. Classic hot rod mechanics in swing there, let's throw all of these different OEM parts together in a previously unintended configuration and add a dash of fabrication until it equals awesome... love it. As far as the decision for the sprayers; yes I am hoping that it will just be a redundant contingency for heat soak and that over-sizing the exchanger will be sufficient. However I feel that it will help manage the probability of it becoming an issue in times where the car is being driven for extended periods of time as I plan on keeping this my daily.

supakat- My initial goal is 300-350hp, ultimately the tune is going to let me know what it will be and I want to start conservative until I get a solid base tune. The main point of this endeavor is to create and have something original under my hood, the output (which I feel will not be in shortage) is just the icing on the cake. I am shooting for an injector size that will not give me idle issues but hopefully not hit the 80% max duty cycle for the initial tune that way I have some overhead to tune into more power later on. If this is a best of both worlds style pipe dream then so be it, I'll just buy the best set for the task at hand. If I can get a set I can tune down initially then "grow into" and not have to buy another set of injectors later, this would be ideal.
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by supakat »

I ran 1000cc low z with no idle issues but ran mspnp to control fuel. I would go with anything above 740cc for future growth.
12.96 @ 116.36 - 2.1 60ft - 11/2011
13.1 @ 114 - 2.3 60ft - 8/2012
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Adrenalin »

Thanks for the interest in my build soekraights.
Its good to hear you are putting in provision for some unknowns (like the sprayers) and the injectors.
Heatsoak will depend on ambient temps and underbonnet temps. The beauty of water to air is that its always cooling the charge air cooler. Do you know the thermal efficiency of the compressor you are using? Mine is pretty poor, around 50% from memory. But my sc doesn't have to run 100% of the time so no issues.

350hp is pretty high for daily sc. What sort of overdrive percentage do you need to run. I have found some basic sc boost calculators online if you want info for establishing drive ratio for given psi.
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

Thanks supakat, I would have thought those would be too big; if you remember, what kind of fuel pressure/pulse widths were you seeing at idle?

Adrenalin, I have checked a couple of calculators, I would definitely like the links to the ones you used to diversify the estimations I have. The power goals are just guesses "from the hip" based on what I've seen accomplished with direct charged M62 setups. When the rubber meets the road I'll let that dictate the tune/output as it running well is more important to me than having met any particular output goal. As far as overdrive percentages, 71.4% puts the redline of the motor and S/C at the same point (7K and 12K respectively). I plan on starting somewhere around 46% for approximately 12lbs boost to start with, that is my current research/approximations. I still need to get the belt contact circumference of the alternator driving part of the crank combination pulley to come up with the pulley size I'll need, luckily I found a local STL place that makes custom pulleys. Now on to the thermal efficiency here are some graphs I came across http://www.mscperformance.com/specpg2.html, this is from the research of a guy throwing one of these on his NSX.

Also I went to my shop (in dire need of spring cleaning...) and snapped some pictures, I'll get them up later as it is time to run to class.
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

So pictures as promised...
(If the edges get clipped reload the page)

-----THE BRAINS-----

BEFORE:

Image

AFTER:

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-----THE FAB-----

A FEW SHOTS OF MY ALTERNATOR RELOCATION BRACKET FOR A QUEST UNIT

Image

Image

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PLACEMENT SHOTS

Image

Image

-----THE REASON-----

THE M90

Image

Image

MOCK PLACEMENT

Image

Image

And since I was at the shop and it has been patient I decided to snap and post a tribute shot of the REAL project vehicle...

'57 STYLE SIDE F-100 CUSTOM CAB

Image
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Adrenalin »

Whaaaaaaaaat!!!!

Putting a KA24der in an F100.....
Awesome. Even more keen to follow this now :D .
I'm interstate at the moment, but will send you the links to the sc calcs as soon as I'm home.
All sounds good thus far.
M series blowers on Ka's has been done a fair bit so you should be able to get a good idea from other builds as you have said.

I nearly moved my alternator and or aircon pump for sc mounting location. Decided it was easiest and best for my build to mount above the dizzy.
I still wish it could have been closer to the block and intake. So I definatly think what your doing is worth while.
It will give a better result in terms of overall build in the end.

Keep the info and build posts coming.
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

My apologies but it seems the picture of the truck is misleading, I put that up just for S's & G's. The DE-R is going in my S13, my daily project. The '57 is my project project. It's power plant is a bit more standard; cammed 302 breathing through a 650 Carter AFB on top of an Edelbrock high port mani, C4 auto (for now) selecting the output to a 9" rear end.
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

WTB:
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

I feel I have acquired enough little bits to get an update in.

Stuff in boxes recieved:
Knock and RTC modules for the MS3X.
IGN-1A coils @ 4ea.
MSD 8.5mm Universal Superconductors (The 8cyl kit was only around $3 more than the 4cyl on Amazon, BOGO-ish)
DIYAutotune Nissan trigger wheel
Innovate Motorsports LC-2 Wideband with gauge
Innovate Motorsports MTX-D Oil Pressure/Temp
DIYAutotune Wiring bundles for the MS3X
Hella 4 Relay Block
Hella 16 circuit fuse block
CLT, AIT sensors
Supertech Valve Seals (and appropriate tools for the job)
Mishimoto CLT Hose adapter
Mishimoto Dual Fan Radiator Shroud - As soon as I took this out of the box I was immediately glad I spent the extra cash for this over a random ebay unit. First impression of the quality of fabrication is pleasing, we shall see how fitment goes...

I have installed the Knock and RTC modules onto the MS3X and am in the process of soldering the plugs for the harness. I am currently a S13 TPS plug away from a complete harness, can't wait to start looming. Busted out a personal schematic for the harness and what has been reduced down to the description of "The Glovebox" (my relay, fuse, and terminal blocks along with the MS3X and LC-2 will be mounted in what will have previously been a glove box.) in AutoCAD. Partly to aid in finalizing my wiring but also as future reference for any trouble shooting.

I have a tentative goal of the 2 weeks preceding Christmas for the battery relocation, MS3X/gauge install, and tuned for daily commission again. I am apprehensively looking forward to nailing out my first tune of this nature, I feel I am reaching the precipice where research alone is insufficient without hands on effort and feedback. Hopefully I will beat the learning curve with a stick and keep from getting stuck in that no-man's land between setup install and driving for too long.

I can't wait to begin getting to turn a part of what seems to be just an increasing pile of parts(read as: money) into a partial sense of fruition.
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

WTB:
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Adrenalin
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Adrenalin »

Cool, good to see this is still going.
Hope you can start the assembly soon.

I'm hoping to get the vortec bypass on this week, so I'll let you know how it goes.

The eaton has an little built in bypass which is similar size to a internal wastegate, correct?
If so, would you run that and a larger bypass as well, or block off the built in unit?
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

The M90 had two major production vehicles in which it was utilized in the US, Pontiac GTPs and Ford Supercoupes (T-Bird). The M90s from the Pontiac 3800s have the built in bypass. The one I have is from a Ford Supercoupe, and the bypass was a separate unit (although I believe it was bolted to the SC). This keeps the overall length down of the compressor housing and is one of the aspects that allows me to fit the SC. I purchased the SC off of ebay and it did not come with any of the rest of the system and I have had no initial luck sourcing one of the stock units. The other reason I am looking into aftermarket bypass units is because I have a feeling that it is worth spending the extra cash for a good aftermarket unit that will more than likely outperform the stock one anyways.
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Adrenalin »

Yeah totally agree.

From what I've read, the more sensitive the bypass is the better response you will get and more drivable the setup will be.
Vortech recommend that the bypass open at very light vacuum put quickly shut as soon as vac dissipates.
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Re: BUILD: Remote W2A Intercooled M90 DE-R

Post by Soekraights »

Here is a little update action...

A friend was in town for a while around the holidays which gave me the opportunity to put the car down for a bit. So with his help (both with rides and the work) we got some progress accomplished.

The stock drive shaft and rear end got swapped out with a one piece aluminum (14 lbs I think) drive shaft and a R32 VLSD with the matching axles. Also took the head off, replaced the valve stem seals, cleaned up the head/piston tops/valves, and lapped the valves.
Unfortunately after the motor was reassembled it misses inconsistently at idle/light cruise and I have been unable to rectify it, but she runs and gets me around so it'll do for now.

Also made a temporary gauge holder and installed my oil temp/pressure unit and my wide band controller/gauge. Fabbed up the first go at the bracket for the four IGN-1A coils and cut/assembled the MSD Superconductors for them.

After a good amount of soldering, felted tape, and hand cramps the harness for the MS3X is finished and installed in the car. I also have installed the relay, fuse, and terminal blocks along with the actual Megasquirt unit into the glove box. Unfortunately the car is still running off of the stock ECU as I was having issues with the lack of a RPM signal and needed the car back on the road as it is my only vehicle on the road. Just need some time so that I can assemble my little DIY oscilloscope (sparkfun.com) and sort out the signal/sync issues. All in all still a long way to go but it feels good to make some headway and get some of the stuff on the car so it doesn't feel like money just sitting around as much.

Currently (still) waiting on my new ISIS exhaust. As of now I am on my second purveyor, long story short I will not be giving Enjuku any more of my business.

I have some pictures to get up by my phone is being a little bastard and won't play nice with the computer, so I'll have to get those up later...
LONG LIVE THE THIRD PEDAL!!!

BUILD:http://www.ka-t.org/viewtopic.php?f=42& ... 1cd1264261

WTB:
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