MS1 - hard/NO starts

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MS1 - hard/NO starts

Post by Spoolin6er » Sat Jan 26, 2013 1:15 pm

I am using MS1 v3.0 with a 24-2 trigger disk (see here) inside my OEM s14 distributor and SOMETIMES I am not seeing any rpm while cranking. The engine will just crank, crank, crank with no rpm reading. Then, seemingly at random, rpm signal will show up and as soon as I get an rpm signal the engine starts right up. (Although sometimes I get a bad rpm signal and it causes kick back). Once it starts, I seem to get no interruption in crank signal.

I also used the tooth logger in Tuner Studio, and get the following:
Image

This is a log where it eventually started:
Image

I don't really know what I'm looking for here, so any input would be great! I also noticed that I don't get any "trigger events" in tunerstudio if while I'm not getting any rpm signal.

Another note - I've also found that a jump start increases the odds that it will actually start. So I charged my battery, cleaned the terminals, added some grounds to the block and starter. No Change. It sounds like it is turning over plenty fast, so IDK whats going on...

Thanks for any help!

- Matt

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Post by Matt Cramer » Mon Jan 28, 2013 7:32 am

How exactly is the board modded for inputs? Can you post a picture of it?
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Post by Spoolin6er » Mon Jan 28, 2013 6:37 pm

- tachselect is jumpered to optoin (with a pull up resistor as shown, pretty sure its 12v but not 100% on that)
- optoout jumpered to tsel

Hopefully the picture below will answer any other questions. Sorry for the picture quality, if anything isn't clear, let me know and I'll check it out...

underside of board:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Gcm- ... .52.56.jpg
Last edited by Spoolin6er on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Matt Cramer » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:46 am

That part looks OK, but please measure the resistance of that pull up resistor. Also, can I see the other side of the board?
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Post by Spoolin6er » Tue Jan 29, 2013 12:25 pm

It should be a 1k, but I'll check when I get home this evening.

If my input circuit was wrong, would it be possible for it to run so well once it starts? The only other issue I'm having is a small tach "spike" at around 4300rpm. I'll try to get a pic of a log, but its fairly consistent, but only under heavy load. I also noticed that the rpm signal can get crazy if I hit the rev limiter. Maybe EFM from essentially a forced miss-fire? I'm not sure, that was going to be my next set of questions, b/c it didn't seem directly related...

Top side:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-GmTw ... .53.20.jpg
Last edited by Spoolin6er on Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by nismoautoxr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:30 pm

Matt...this kindof reminds me of our little problem that ended up being a corrupted tune/firmware on my DIYPNP. It would run perfectly for hours and hours but sometimes on a startup there would be no cranking RPMs on startups sometimes warm sometimes not and very spurratic too. I ended up reburning firmware and just importing my VE table and Ignition tables into a fresh tune and not burning my old MSQ back in and that fixed it forever.

Might not be the case for thisone but sure does sound familiar.....
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Post by Spoolin6er » Tue Jan 29, 2013 4:49 pm

Interesting. I reflashed it with the extra code when I got it, but might be worth a try. So new code AND fresh msq eh?

BTW - checked the pullup resistor, it is 1k.

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Post by nismoautoxr » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:48 pm

1k is fine ...I went as low as a 330 in chasing my problem and all the resistors did was slightly amplify the voltage of the hall signal but with a downside of operating temp of the resistor. This may have absolutely nothing to do with your problem because afterall anything that affects the RPM signal can be a factor but my particular situation was this...the same trigger disc as yours 24-2 at cam speed AKA 12-1 at crank speed ...LS2 coils in wasted spark...batch fire injectors run with a DIYPNP which is a microsquirt module based ECU . The car would Start and run as long as I wanted it to and then all of a sudden I could let it sit for 3-4 hours like if I drove to work and got in it to go to lunch and it wouldnt startfor a long time . When it wouldnt start ..TS showed no cranking RPM .It would usually take 30 seconds or so before it would start and sometimes it would kick back like it mis synched but never any synch errors showed in logs .

The solution for my problem which still baffles me was this...I saved the VE1 and Ign 1 tables ....then I reflashed firmware then I totally created a new project as if I was just getting started for the first time then I imported my ve and Ign tables to that tune and setup the tune /MSQ with all the pertinent stuff such as basic setup stuff like RF and squirt count ,inj characteristics,EGO control etc etc idle control yada yada and I swear ...from that day on the problem was gone and has never returned .

Before doing this....I went through everything hardware wise .Probably drove Matt Cramer bonkers with all my emails . I put an oscilloscope right at the processor pin and the optoisolator and the signal was right there..... a nice square wave signal yet the thing would not show RPM ...we went so far as to replace the microsquirt card but this did not fix it .

By all means do the diagnostics because that is tried and true most of the time but Im just sharing my experienced and my solution and it sounds alot like yours.
Ricky Ragan,
95 SE ,LS1 N/A and T56, 230/232 @.050 cam, MS3 with MS3X,GC coilovers,17x8.5 Enkei RPF1 on 255 40 17 RS3 Hankooks, 377HP/351TQ , megasquirt3 fully sequential

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Post by Spoolin6er » Tue Jan 29, 2013 8:55 pm

Crazy, but what the heck, I'll give it a try....

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Post by Matt Cramer » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:24 am

If the firmware doesn't work, let me know, and I can go over how to mod the input circuit to get a stronger signal.
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Post by Spoolin6er » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:54 pm

Sooo... I've had an interesting evening.

I exported my tables and reloaded the firmware. I sat down with a fresh msq on my laptop and my old msq on my desktop and went through the review mode making all the settings the same. I did run across a few settings that seemed weird and changed them:

- Min and Max Baro correction was set to like 20 and 248 kPa, if I understand correctly, this should actually be close to 100 so that the correction can't be way off? I set max to 120 and min to 80, which is still way off...

-Overboost protection was set to 2KPa, not sure how that's even possible now set to 200

When I first made this msq, I used an msq from the first car I MS'ed (an 1g mx6), and even then, I didn't start with a fresh msq. So there's no telling where those strange settings came from.

Regardless, I loaded my new msq and tried to start the car. It acted basically the same, except now it wouldn't start even with rpm signal! I don't know what changed, but it wasn't happy. I re checked my spark settings and everything was fine (yes i plugged my coil back in after the re-flash). It would try to start (every once and a while as before), fire just a little and then stop.

After 30 minutes of checking, and rechecking settings I reluctantly went back to my previous msq and it acted exactly as it had been - a few crank attempts with no rpm signal and then it started. Blows my mind!!

With all my starting attempts, I got to look at my rpm and the sparkA LED lots. Here's some different ways things can happen:

1. I hit the key, engine is turning over, rpm never moves, I let off the key and the rpm jumps up to around 100-500 while the fuel pump kicks on (like a priming pulse) and some times the coil fires.

Is that normal? I have the fuel pump set to only prime when there is an injector prime command.

2. I hit the key and the rpm might jump up to around 200, but it seems like its frozen there b/c it will stay on the exact number for a second or two. Mean while I have no spark events.

A few notes about the car:

- it has this weird starter "issue" where some times it sounds like it turns over faster than others. I have no idea how. As I said before, I ran extra ground wires and ensured good bat connections. In either case it definitely sounds like its spinning plenty fast to be started, but it does seem to have a higher probability to get rpm signal and start when its spinning faster.

- I finally had the bright idea to switch one of the gauges to vbat - its around 11.8 and drops into the the mid 10's while cranking, Interestingly I saw the same numbers when I hooked up a jump start box. MS power and grounds use the factory locations.

Sorry for the information over load, but I spent a lot of time on this thing tonight and figure the more info the more likely we can find a solution...

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Post by nismoautoxr » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:16 am

I assume that when you loaded the new firmware fresh and the new tune fresh that you went into tools and recalibrated the Map, CTS, and IAT as well as min max TPS adcs? As I said before my problem and solution may not apply to yours ...it just sounded alot like it . I guess it was worth a shot but obviously yours is differant .
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Post by Matt Cramer » Thu Jan 31, 2013 6:41 am

Also check your "Hold ignition" value - too much and this will delay syncing up.
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Post by Spoolin6er » Thu Jan 31, 2013 7:25 am

hold ignition is set to 1.

The thing is some times I can crank the engine over for 10+ seconds and never see any rpm.

I actually forgot to recal the TPS. But the MAP, CTS, and IAT are all set in the configurator (MS1) so when I reloaded the firmware it pulled from my old values. I wonder if I should have started from a whole new "Car1" or what ever.

TPS might have been the issue that stopped it from staying running, but it was doing the same thing before it even tried to fire...

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Post by Spoolin6er » Thu Jan 31, 2013 2:14 pm

So what needs to be done to strengthen the input signal?

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Post by Matt Cramer » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:08 am

When you are getting no RPM, do you also get no signal in the composite log? If so, try the "low to high" mods at this link:

http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms1extra/MS_ ... tm#hallV33
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Post by Spoolin6er » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:57 am

is the composite log the normal log file, or something else?

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Post by Spoolin6er » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:28 am

Not to question you, do you really want me to build it as a "low to high." It seems that you guys normally suggest to set it up as a high to low.

From my limited circuit understanding, it looks like the "low to high" setup will effectively just invert the signal which would shift my timing by one tooth.

Is this really what you need me to do? Just wanted to make sure it wasn't a typo...

Looks like I cant use the composite logger with out purchasing TS? Its hard to tell for sure since I can't see rpm and the tooth logger at the same time, but yes, it seems there are no teeth logged while I'm not getting rpm. Sporadic teeth appear some times (as seen in the log by the irregular and long tooth signals) and these seem to trigger the rpm to jump to a value and hold for a few seconds. I also noticed that some times the rpms will jump up and the ignition will fire once after I've stopped cranking :?


Also worth noting is that I think I installed my disk backwards because my triggers came out to:
trig A: 8
trig B: 2
angle: 73deg

But I wouldn't think that would cause any problems...

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Post by schmauster920 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:46 am

Have you tried another distributor? Checked power to the distributor when the RPMs are dropping off?

It could be something simple
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Post by Spoolin6er » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:58 am

I don't have another distributor, but it works flawlessly once it starts (almost, occasional tiny tach spike that I'll have to deal with later).

I'll have to find some one to crank the engine while I check voltage to the CAS...

I am beginning to think its power related though. After the car has been running a few minutes, it starts back up first try nearly every time. I also noticed that on initial start up the bat voltage in MS reads 11.8ish and drops into the 10's while cranking - but I would think this would be plenty to get crank signal. When I measure voltage at the bat I get 12+. What's crazy is that I'm using 12v power from the stock ECU! After the engine has been running, I can turn it off and see about 12.2v in MT... and it starts.

I'm starting to loose grip on what is cause and what is coincidence - its so unpredictable!

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Post by nismoautoxr » Sat Feb 02, 2013 3:52 pm

voltage of 10-10.5 should not cause a no start . I routinely see that on a cold start and its fine . DO you have access to an oscilloscope ?
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Post by Spoolin6er » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:39 pm

not really, but i can try and borrow one from school...

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Post by nismoautoxr » Sat Feb 02, 2013 4:47 pm

it would help tremendously in determining if you are getting a signal out of the dizzy then you could chase it from there to the MS and determine if its an MS issue or a hardware /wiring issue outside of the MS.

I use mine on a regular basis and even though its a very old scope (sun LS 2000) it has been invaluable to me. You could also construct one of these http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... card+scope
Ricky Ragan,
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Post by Spoolin6er » Sat Feb 02, 2013 6:26 pm

Spoolin6er wrote:is the composite log the normal log file, or something else?
I don't know how or why, but I think that just worked!

I had the coil disconnected, so I haven't actually tried to start it yet, but I was getting fluctuating cranking rpm every time I hit the key! I'll have to figure out the new trigger positions tomorrow...

Seriously though, how does this work?

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Post by nismoautoxr » Sat Feb 02, 2013 7:01 pm

I got no clue as to how to read a composite log because for me it opens in a spreadsheet . If you want something visual you can click on the diagnostic tab in TS and record a tooth log or just watch the tooth logger in real time . It will be immediately clear if you dont get teeth showing up on the screen in a 11 and missing pattern if you have cranking pulse. however, this only tells you that the processor is or is not reading a signal ...its analogous to doing a compression test on an engine ...the test tells you if theres a problem or not but then you gotta break out the leakdown tester to narrow it down.

This is why a scope is usually the best thing to skip to because you can narrow it down with that .

BTW its normal to see a RPM spike when transitioning from crank to run or from off to run . DOnt focus on that .Only focus on what is going on when the starter is spinning.
Ricky Ragan,
95 SE ,LS1 N/A and T56, 230/232 @.050 cam, MS3 with MS3X,GC coilovers,17x8.5 Enkei RPF1 on 255 40 17 RS3 Hankooks, 377HP/351TQ , megasquirt3 fully sequential

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Post by Spoolin6er » Sat Feb 02, 2013 8:54 pm

I'll see if there's some one I can talk to about getting a scope...

But, I decided to brave the cold and go a head and try and start it. It started up on the same trigger teeth as before (I expected to have to sift them one tooth). After breaking out the timing lite I got the new settings dialed in:

Old settings:
Trig Angle: 69
Trig A: 8
Trig B: 2

New:
Trig Angle: 56
Trig A: 8
Trig B: 2

Starts right up every time! But guess what... took it for a drive, and it pretty much feels like I'm hitting a rev limiter at like 4000. Looking at the logs, I see tach spikes but they're not as bad as they feel. I also can see spikes as low as 2600 rpm. Free rev'ing it seems I can get past this barrier, but its far from smooth.

Well at least we made progress... I think this is progress, right? haha

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Post by Matt Cramer » Mon Feb 04, 2013 8:54 am

Could you capture a tooth log of the tach spikes? This will give me more to go on.
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Post by Spoolin6er » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:41 am

Ok, afte looking at the tooth logs, it looks like we definitely made it worse. But it definitely starts more reliably, unless i "fixed" something else while doing the circuit change...

I have a drift event on Saturday, so I may have to wire it back the way it was if we can't get this figured out quickly...

Thanks for the help!!

Here is my first start attempt of the day:
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ex7x ... estart.jpg
The very first time I turned the key to crank, it was turning over but I wasn't seeing anything on the logger. I tried again and got the first section of long gaps between teeth, then it started. My warm up enrichment isn't quite right so the idel started to drop and then it died. Cranked it again at the last set of "slow" teeth - it started and ran till the end.

Next was a no-start, followed by a easy start and than turned it off:
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-7L-h ... rt_off.jpg

Then a hard start and run. Definitely something up with the signals while running:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-I0P0 ... rt_run.jpg

Here it is at idle after some warm up time:
How it runs a reasonable as it does like this I have no idea haha
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-WyQm ... 2/idle.jpg

Then we get to the real mess - this is under load around 3k.

Image

MegaLog Viewer of the tach spikes/misfires. Interestingly, when I free rev it slowly, it revs MUCH smoother... IDK what's going on
https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-[url ... 20load.png[/url]

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Post by nismoautoxr » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:29 pm

that is nasty!!!!! I would skip the drift event untill I got that straightened out . The tooth log is input so with that sort of pattern its no wonder it would misfire . DO b careful.
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Post by Spoolin6er » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:38 pm

Already paid the $90 :(

But the signal looked much better the way it was wired before and it ran great, just had issues starting. I don't see how this could have possibly made it start easier! Honestly I'm still lost as to how inverting the signal really effects it at all...

Just waiting on the word from Matt. I don't want to change it back and then find out that he wanted me to try something else with it wired the way it is.

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