Another 95 pnp no start issue

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dj_smooth
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Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Stock head
550cc injectors deatchwerks
Map
-maf disconnected during megasquirt start attempts.
Sequential injection with trigger wheel installed in correct orientation.
-jumpers j8 and j10 installed on "4"
95 ka24de with jumpers on pnp installed correctly for 95.

Fuel load pre starting shows @ 110. I'm assuming it's the same as atmosphere/0 boost since there is no vacuum.

During cranking I get tach signal around 250rpms also over boost display lights up.
It seems that I have no spark output.

Everything on the car is in working. I have swapped my nistune ecu back and forth between megasquirt attempts and the car fires right up. I'm lost. The car should at least attempt to start/hence spark.

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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by Matt Cramer »

Can you post a copy of the MSQ file and a data log of an unsuccessful start attempt? That will give me more to go on.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by supakat »

Just verifying that you set base timing/synced trigger wheel with trigger angle offset option in TS?
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dj_smooth
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

I typed this out so that anyone who doesn't have megasquirt right in front of the them can have an idea. The screen shots and pad pics that I posted do not have enough resolution to make out squat.


Trigger Wheel Settings
- Dual wheel with missing tooth
-Trigger wheel Teeth: 12
-Missing Teeth(teeth) 1
-Tooth#1 Angle(deg BTDC): 345.0
-Wheel Speed Crank Wheel
-2nd Trigger Active on: Falling Edge

Ignition Options
-Spark Mode(dizzy, EDIS, wheel) Toothed Wheel
-Ignition Input Capture Falling Edge
-Spark OUtput Going Low (Normal)
-Number of Coils Single Coil
-Spark A output pin ect.. JS10

More Igntion Options
-Fixed advance Fixed Timing

Calculated Required Fuel
-Required Fuel 7.3 (ms)3.65
-Control Algorithm Speed Density
-Squirts per cycle 4
-Engine Stroke Four-stroke
-Injector Port Type Port Injection
-Number of Inj 4
-Engine Type Even Fire

Seqential Injection
-Seqential Injection Sequential/Semi-sequential



Here is my file. I will also update my first post will actual screen shots instead of blurred ipad images. It might be a bit before I can get a starting log. This is my daily and so I have to be able to swap back to my nistune at a moments notice if I am not able to get this thing fired up.
http://www.symtechlabs.com/support/down ... p?file=302
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

I noticed most people are going "high inverted". I went "low normal" because my ignition coil started get hot. I also notice most people are going with a "rising edge". I have not had a chance to try those. Tuner studio did show that my I was "sync" after a few cranks. It did not however struggle to start. No signs of actual spark. I didn't have someone with me to bump the starter while I check for spark.

Is it suppose to be "high inverted?" My stock ignition system (distributer cap and rotor) seemed to get hot with that setting.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

This may be my issue. Can someone explain why "high inverted got my coil hot? As stated previously, car does run fine on nistune.
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supakat
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by supakat »

You need to get base timing set. From the trigger angle value you have, it is not set. Basically set the fixed timing to 20* and mark the pulley with white out on the last mark on the pulley. Then zero out the block, make sure the cams are facing outward, and use the rotor to make sure the dizzy is pointing to point one on the dizzy cap. Once you confirmed that, use a timing light to see how close you are to the 20* mark on pulley. I don't move the dizzy at all, I change the trigger angle until I get it dead on 20* mark. Once you verify base is set, change from fixed to use table and give her a whirl. also, you may want to disconnect your injectors and use a battery charge/starter to keep the battery in good health. After you get this done, the rest is cake work.
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dj_smooth
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

What about my setting?
- high inverted or low normal
-dual wheel or single wheel?

Also, when checking base timing, am I just point the light and looking to see how close to 20* btdc I'm getting while cranking? As in
Rotor on #1 spark plug
injectors unplugged
Fixed timing at 20*
timing light while cranking

And then adjust trigger angle until I'm almost dead on 20*

Then put it back to use table setting?
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supakat
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by supakat »

Going low and single wheel. Make sure the igniter chip does not get hot. If it does with key on, change to high but stock ignition is low. Yes, point the timing light at crank and make sure the 20* mark is hitting the pointer/indicator from the block. After you get it set, use table settings. This is the most crucial part of the install. If you do not get it right, you will be chasing your tail for no issue. After it is set, issue to start up usually is cranking pulse table and ve fuel map 1. A wide band will point you into the right direction to get start up.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

So does that mean I need to scrap the sequential and go with batch?

That would me changing the jumpers on the ECU back as well. J10 and J8 back to "2"
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by supakat »

Honestly, that is why when I first installed the ecu, I did it in steps. I first installed with no maf and stock trigger wheel. After that was good, I jnstalled trigger wheel. After that was good, I changed to wasted spark. After a few month's of tuning/driving, I tried sequential but it did now run right like it was misfiring. I switched it back to batch because I did not feel like messing with it. Maybe one day I will but as of right now, nah I'm good. I just want to get my fuel situation sorted out so I can dri e hard.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

I've tried everything... No spark and no fuel.... Single wheel, dual wheel... Jumpers on "2" jumpers on "4". All with the diy cam wheel
Fixed timing, injectors unplugged... the timing light did not strobe. I tried connecting the injectors with "use table/fixed timing". Pulled plugs and they were not wet. I did not get any signs of trying to start. I am getting an rpm signal it show RPMS around 200 ish. Megasquirt shows sync. I'm still researching how to really log this. I haven't really got any real starting attempt logs. Battery almost died and so I swapped back to nistune to get it starting to charge. I'm pretty lost at this point.

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dj_smooth
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Ok got a partner to assist with cranking. Pulled plug to watch for spark. Getting spark. I then noticed that under
Advance-sequencial/semi I had that on fixed. I out it on "use table" and then it seemed to want to start.

Back to the drawing board.

Timing on fixed
Advance- sequential on fixed
Trigger wheel installed
Injectors unplugged
Timing light strobing for 20* fixed angle.
-started with 345 nothing
-tried 690 it seemed to be closer.

I'm still confused on trying to find the correct #1 tooth angle. I'm assuming just play with the trigger angle until I start seeing some timing marks.

Can some of you share your trigger angles? Yes I am aware that all will different. I'm looking for a ball park figure. Some of you stab the distributer. Others clock it. And some just use the trigger angle and some do both.

Dizzy is set as stock with only the cam wheel being swapped out. I'm super stoked to attempt this project. Doing what most are scared to touch gives me a sense of accomplishment. Thanks to all who take the time to invest in helping me.

I've read a lot of post by nismoauto??? Punchdrunk, wheelman, and supakat ect.

Eventually the juice will be worth the squeeze.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by supakat »

I am at 350.1 with dizzy at the most counter clockwise position. Why do you try getting her started with stock cas? Then move on to the next step. Also, if the battery is low, timing light may not pick up the weak spark. Just take baby steps so when it does not want to start, you have a progress point of what you did from last start up.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Getting ready to deploy for another 6 month tour and so time is limited. I have to do these things when the wife is asleep. I'll try some more when I get a chance.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by Matt Cramer »

Normally, you'd use Going High on an MSPNP unless you had some specific and unusual mods. I noticed that MSQ is not for an MSPNP - it's set up for an MS2 instead. For an MSPNP, you'll want to change "MegaSquirt / MicroSquirt Selection" to "MicroSquirt Module / MSPNP / DIYPNP." Or upgrade to the MSPNP version of the 3.3.1 code, which has this selected automatically.

Full sequential requires dual wheel mode.

Correct that the Tooth #1 Angle needs to be adjusted until the timing you see with a timing light matches the timing in TunerStudio.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Back from deployment... Attempted to start again. Updated Tuner Studio and megasquirt PNP2 NS9501A to latest firmware. Downloaded base map and firmware does not match that of the base map. When updating the firmware, I had 4 options. Megasquirt 2, megasquirt diy Pnp2 ECt... I can't remember what the 4 options where. Anyhow, which firmware definition needs to be loaded? Sorry if I'm to vague with no logs at this time.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by Matt Cramer »

It needs to be loaded with the MSPNP firmware version, not the MicroSquirt Module version.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Ok I'm doing it again. Hopefully I get it right.

I enter

"4"

"MS2 = ECUs with an MS2 daughtercard
Microsquirt = black plastic cased ECU
Microsquirt module = DIYPNP or other ECUs that use the Microsquirt module.
MSPNP2 = DIYautotune MSPNP2 only "

Found this on the archives.

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dj_smooth
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Call the diy tech support and was directed to download the firmware on pnp site ms2 extra 3.3.1a. Now I'm receiving this error.

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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by BigLoukaT »

dj_smooth wrote:What about my setting?
- high inverted or low normal
-dual wheel or single wheel?

Also, when checking base timing, am I just point the light and looking to see how close to 20* btdc I'm getting while cranking? As in
Rotor on #1 spark plug
injectors unplugged
Fixed timing at 20*
timing light while cranking

And then adjust trigger angle until I'm almost dead on 20*

Then put it back to use table setting?
This is actually incorrect (unless I'm mistaken). When checking timing during cranking, you are using the cranking advance setting, not fixed timing setting. If you set timing like this, you are probably anywhere from 10 to 15 degrees away from being timing synced. (Normal cranking advance 10 to 5 degrees or lower)

I'm not fluent on setting sequential settings, but is there any impact to using four squirts/alternating in the basic fuel setup (2 squirts per injector) and enabling sequential? Or does selecting sequential revert back to one squirt (and the 7.3 required fuel setting) behind the scenes?
1990 S13
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npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Alright finally have cam sync and rpm. What would cause a fuel cut during cranking? I read that if tps threshold is exceeded, that could do it however I am not exceeding the threshhold. Required fuel load is set

2389
550cc

Link to the vid of what I'm talking about.


http://s114.photobucket.com/user/671_is ... A.mp4.html

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Last edited by dj_smooth on Mon Oct 20, 2014 1:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by airman »

BigLoukaT wrote:
dj_smooth wrote:What about my setting?
- high inverted or low normal
-dual wheel or single wheel?

Also, when checking base timing, am I just point the light and looking to see how close to 20* btdc I'm getting while cranking? As in
Rotor on #1 spark plug
injectors unplugged
Fixed timing at 20*
timing light while cranking

And then adjust trigger angle until I'm almost dead on 20*

Then put it back to use table setting?
This is actually incorrect (unless I'm mistaken). When checking timing during cranking, you are using the cranking advance setting, not fixed timing setting. If you set timing like this, you are probably anywhere from 10 to 15 degrees away from being timing synced. (Normal cranking advance 10 to 5 degrees or lower)
I think it's fine, unless I am wrong the "fixed timing" overrides even the cranking advance :)
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

So frustrated. I've been trying to load my tune so that you guys can see what's going on.
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BigLoukaT
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by BigLoukaT »

airman wrote:
BigLoukaT wrote:
dj_smooth wrote:What about my setting?
- high inverted or low normal
-dual wheel or single wheel?

Also, when checking base timing, am I just point the light and looking to see how close to 20* btdc I'm getting while cranking? As in
Rotor on #1 spark plug
injectors unplugged
Fixed timing at 20*
timing light while cranking

And then adjust trigger angle until I'm almost dead on 20*

Then put it back to use table setting?
This is actually incorrect (unless I'm mistaken). When checking timing during cranking, you are using the cranking advance setting, not fixed timing setting. If you set timing like this, you are probably anywhere from 10 to 15 degrees away from being timing synced. (Normal cranking advance 10 to 5 degrees or lower)
I think it's fine, unless I am wrong the "fixed timing" overrides even the cranking advance :)
Curiosity got the best of me and I decided to try this out on my own car (DIYPNP fw 3.3.2) :D

Cranking advance at 10 degrees and fixed advanced enabled and set to 30 degrees (only for this test), cranking without the fuel pump on (so definitely still in cranking mode), ignition advance gauge in TS showed 10 degrees.

So now we know for sure (barring any firmware specific changes in the ignition code) :text-threadjacked: lol

ETA: video link above doesn't work.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

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BigLoukaT
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by BigLoukaT »

Fuel load is way off in that video (>400%)... have you calibrated the map sensor? What does your map sensor read with key on, engine off? Would be expecting around 100kpa... your megasquirt is reading that there is 45 psi boost in the engine.

What does injector pulsewidth read in your start attempts?

I think airman opened up ka-t's attachment allowance to allow .msq and .msl to be uploaded here. That will really help us out in troubleshooting with you
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
dj_smooth
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

Good call on calibrating the Map Sensor. Turns out that I had to use the "MPX4115" to get the map sensor to read around 112%. Did a little digging and found that this one of the earliest board they had and used this sensor before on the pnp before swapping over to the map daddy. Makes sense as to why the base map settings were a little off. I have not attempted to start this evening, but will try tomorrow. Now I must do research on how big this map sensor actually is. Not quite sure yet but it looks like this sensor only goes to 115KPA or 16psi.
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by dj_smooth »

I retract my last post. It is indeed the 4 bar map sensor. What I don't understand is that when I used the mpx4115 settings the ecu read within range. I have also taken photos of different common map caliberations. What are your thoughts? Could this in fact be pretty much a 1 bar map sensor?

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BigLoukaT
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Re: Another 95 pnp no start issue

Post by BigLoukaT »

First, something looks very wrong about your map (fuel load) readings. For every calibration you tried, it goes straight to the max kpa value, indicating that there may be an issue that is pulling your map signal on the board to 5v. I would discuss this specifically with diyautotune... looks like a board fault potentially.

Some other observations:
Baromatic correction:
unless there is another map sensor, the barometric sensor needs to be calibrated the same as the map sensor (takes an initial reading at key on to determine barometric pressure)
also, there was a change starting in 3.3 firmwares: barometric correction total vacuum and rate need to both be set to zero (see release notes included in the firmware zip)

I think your timing is still not perfectly synced with megasquirt (using fixed value while cranking and adjusting to fixed value instead of cranking advance)

Also fyi, quick note on map sensors. They are absolute pressure readings so 0psi is at approximately 101 kpa and 0 kpa is total vacuum. For the 116 kpa sensor you mention above, that would only allow about 2 psi boost.

Above all though, the map sensor needs to be addressed.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
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