NISTUNE???

Discussion about ECU Tuning Products and Theories
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8-bit
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Post by 8-bit »

JKTUNING wrote:
8-bit wrote:95% of ka-t builds would shine with nistune.

Also, what wasn't mentioned here.... the stock ecu, which nistune uses, has algorithms for smoothing operation. That smooth driveability in cruise is hard to replicate in a standalone. My calum (like nistune) with my own street tune was more powerful and more smooth than a dyno tuned standalone, as vouched by Sean C (he bought it and replaced his standalone).
The stock firmware also has it's own limitations which can make tuning a higher HP setup a little tricky. You end up with a good bit of lost resolution, for example transitioning from cruise to WOT at different RPM points. This is only when using an "NA" firmware on a boosted setup.. like you would be doing with a KA-T.

Sure you can work around it and everything will turn out ok but there are just little things that the community has lived with for so long that I guess it has just become standard tuning practice.

But alas, I will agree that a properly tuned stock ECU based vehicle will generally run better than most standalone systems. This is mainly because most people who are tuning the standalone aren't capable of dialing in all of the little things to help make the car drive and act like stock.
This is why I said 95%. You're talking about the other 5%.

Have a look around you. Very few people pass 1bar(400hp).
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Post by 8-bit »

ka-tnoobtuber wrote:You said that you do it with tunerpro ? is that the sofeware that comes with nistune or is that something you had to download on your own .? it may be a stupid question but ill learn from it lol
Ok. Here is the history, and the answers you need.

1) calum developed a launch control feature in the tunable daughterboard setups (Moates, Calum, Calum RT, Nistune, etc). If I recall, he deleted routines in the program that deal with the EGR and wrote in new code.

2) In order to have this feature in your tune (.bin), you need the tune to be built off of a .bin that already has the hacks in it. This means you need to go to my hosted tunes page and find the Launch Control .bin and then transfer over your maps, tables, etc, from whatever tune you had that didn't have LC. You could do this step in the Nistune software.

Here is the link: viewtopic.php?t=28671&start=0

You will see mention of launch control in bold.


3) In order to adjust the launch control settings, you need to use Tunerpro. This is the software used for tuning the calumsult, but it can be used for any .bin for the KA24DE daughterboard gear as previously stated.

4) Also, in order to adjust the launch control settings, you will need the launch control .XDF file for Tunerpro. In tunerpro, you use a XDF file to view tunes correctly. The software can tune Chevrolet, and other ECU, so the XDF file is how you tell the software which type of tuning you are doing. Some XDF for the ka24de are setup for regular tunes, etc, and then some are set up to utilize the hacked LC setup in the tune.

5) So if you have a nistune, which is a daughterboard using the same .bin files for the tunes, you use Tunerpro with the LC XDF File, load up the LC .Bin tune, and set the launch control settings as you desire while using Tunerpro. Save the tune.

6) You load the tune into Nistune, and tune the other parts of the tune to fit your car. Nistune software lacks the ability to adjust the LC settings, but they are there hidden in the tune (.bin) just as before. And the ECU will utilize the LC settings.

7) If you need to go back and adjust the LC settings, you use tunerpro and tweak it, save it, and reload it into your daughterboard, etc.

------------------------------

That should be pretty damn clear.
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Post by JKTUNING »

8-bit wrote: This is why I said 95%. You're talking about the other 5%.

Have a look around you. Very few people pass 1bar(400hp).
Well honestly, the issue is still present no matter how much boost you are running, it is just more noticeable in higher HP applications as they have a greater range of load values (which aren't covered in the stock ECU at WOT).
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Post by 8-bit »

The interpolation of the values alongside well thought out tuning provides a very solid tune that is smooth in operation and addresses the conditions of cruise and boost appropriately. Maybe we fundamentally disagree about what matters here, but the reality of what rolls out on the streets shows that such 'lost resolution' is almost irrelevant -- again, considering 95% of these cars are hobbies --- nobody is shooting the car to mars, or even competing for inches.
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Post by JKTUNING »

8-bit wrote:Maybe we fundamentally disagree about what matters here, but the reality of what rolls out on the streets shows that such 'lost resolution' is almost irrelevant -- again, considering 95% of these cars are hobbies --- nobody is shooting the car to mars, or even competing for inches.
I think it is just the fact that to me it isn't fundamentally correct to limit yourself to the last column of the fuel table for any throttle over say 80%.. which includes all boost levels. Even though we are talking about a MAF based system here, it still doesn't make any sense to do so.

There is a way around it, but the stock firmware limits you to the last fuel column anytime you are WOT. While that is perfectly fine for an all motor car, to me it doesn't cut it for anything that is running any significant amount of boost.

The OEM tunes for the forced induction cars do not have this limitation, as they shouldn't.
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Post by arob987 »

JKTUNING wrote:
8-bit wrote:Maybe we fundamentally disagree about what matters here, but the reality of what rolls out on the streets shows that such 'lost resolution' is almost irrelevant -- again, considering 95% of these cars are hobbies --- nobody is shooting the car to mars, or even competing for inches.
I think it is just the fact that to me it isn't fundamentally correct to limit yourself to the last column of the fuel table for any throttle over say 80%.. which includes all boost levels. Even though we are talking about a MAF based system here, it still doesn't make any sense to do so.

There is a way around it, but the stock firmware limits you to the last fuel column anytime you are WOT. While that is perfectly fine for an all motor car, to me it doesn't cut it for anything that is running any significant amount of boost.

The OEM tunes for the forced induction cars do not have this limitation, as they shouldn't.
I'm gonna have to agree with 8-bit I have nistune and I never have to be in the last column when I'm wot in boost, let alone 80 % throttle. If you don't know how to scale the map for na and boost then of course you will be at the last column, but that's tuner error not a software error. I can make the fuel column being used any column in want it to be.

Not doubting your tuning or product just don't want misleading information floating around for people new to tuning thinking they need something like your product to tune there car to be superior. all the features sound good but for a new person to tuning setting up all the parameters of ecu and learning tuning would be overwhelming and probably end up in catastrophe.
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Post by JKTUNING »

arob987 wrote:I'm gonna have to agree with 8-bit I have nistune and I never have to be in the last column when I'm wot in boost, let alone 80 % throttle. If you don't know how to scale the map for na and boost then of course you will be at the last column, but that's tuner error not a software error. I can make the fuel column being used any column in want it to be.
Your "calculated TP" might not be in the last column, this is what nistune and all of the other logging software allow you to see for map tracing.

The actual column that is used for fueling when over 80% throttle is the last column in the fuel map.. so in the end they are map tracing the calculated TP value AND not the actual column that is being used.

There is this little thing called an alpha N limit flag in ALL of the NA Nissan tunes, (including the KA), it is a table indexed by RPM in which any throttle percentage over the value listed in that table will cause the fuel table to read off the last column.

This is NOT mis information, just something that you don't have access to or have the ability to disable in the stock firmware.

Also, THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO THE IGNITION TABLES. The ignition table always uses the calculated TP value for table look up.
All the features sound good but for a new person to tuning setting up all the parameters of ecu and learning tuning would be overwhelming and probably end up in catastrophe.
The current version of the software is really no different than tuning a stock firmware ECU, but you just have access to everything in the ECU.. without any hidden items or unknown/mislabeled tables.
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Post by 8-bit »

You are wrong.

I scale my maps so that cruise/atmospherics are in the first 6-7 columns and then boost and overboost safety are in the lat 9-10 columns. My maps trace exactly as they would be expected to. You have to remap the TP scaling for the fuel and timing maps so that your TP for atmospheric is in the middle, not the end of the map.

You may not be communicating clearly, but what I read from you sounds like misinformation or that you are mistaken.

To quote you:
I think it is just the fact that to me it isn't fundamentally correct to limit yourself to the last column of the fuel table for any throttle over say 80%.. which includes all boost levels. Even though we are talking about a MAF based system here, it still doesn't make any sense to do so.
Those words make a claim that is false. The maps I have images of here are real, and in nistune, they trace where they are indicated. Even when I tuned my Calum RT in tunerpro RT and used Nissan Datascan, it traced correctly. And all the while my maps had several columns of resolution for the range of boost. I plan my tunes this way because it produces a more 'map-like' table where the TP values are reflected somewhat evenly across the air-pressure/flow. So because my tunes go to about 1 bar (with some room over that), that is 2 Bar Absolute Pressure, so I need the first 14 columns to span that region evenly. And thanks to interpolation between the values, the tune smooth operating and in practice works similar to a smoothed tune of higher resolution.

Here's a figure I generated while explaining this in another thread:

Image

Image


As far as I have been able to tell, my fuel values are reflected correctly. I would run round 12.5 for the first 0-5psi and then 12ish for 6-8psi, then 11.5ish from there on up. When driving, these values were reproduced. Maybe you had other values in the tune set up in a limited fashion, like TTPMax?

A side note: Both of my KA-T, T3/T04E S13, and GT28R, then GT3071R S14, would spool with even 50% throttle position, and after 60-70%, there was no noticeable (butt dyno) difference in performance thereafter.
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Post by JKTUNING »

8-bit wrote:You are wrong.
Those words make a claim that is false. The maps I have images of here are real, and in nistune, they trace where they are indicated.
Please re-read what I posted.

I specifically said the IGNITION MAPS ARE NOT AFFECTED BY THIS.

Only the fuel maps.

Nistune/NDS/etc are tracing the calculated TP value for the fuel map and NOT the actual column that you are using when going WOT. It traces the proper column for cruise/idle and part throttle at throttle percentages under 80%.

So no.. I am not wrong. I have tested this on the dyno and in real world conditions on many cars. When you disable the alpha N limit, it completely changes the WOT fueling and allows for more actual resolution.

I understand this is an "unfamiliar" concept for most of you guys since you have been tuning like this for some time now, but you would be amazed at some of the oddities in the Nissan firmware that have been uncovered the further into the code you get.

Just to be clear here, you do understand that Dave from TunerCode has completely disassembled and rewritten the whole firmware for the OBD1 Nissan ECU. He has by far the best understanding of how these ECUs work. I have been working with him for the last 3 years to produce a product specifically designed for this platform. There are no questionable tables/values/flags, they are all known and well documented, including the alpha N limit.

If you would like to discuss this further, shoot me a PM.
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Post by wannabethestig »

I am very interested in this thread an i have nistune but am not the one tuning the car at this point. Couple of questions.

1. Can nistune turn off the alpha-n maps for fuel?
2. Can nistune change this alpha-n map?
3. Can nistune change the alpha-n map trigger points?
4. If nistune can't do either and you account for the enrichment factor of the alpha-n map when you are creating your wot map does it matter? I mean you can still hit you target afr's right, so what would be the benefit of doing any modifications to the alpha-n settings?

I guess that any columns between 80% and your last column would be worthless if it just jumps to the alpha-n table. I keep going back to the resolution statement. If you build the same amount of boost per given rpm all the time then i don't think it would matter much however in the real world this doesn't happen due to how much weight is in the car the gear you are in going up hill or down your shifting rpm temperature ect. Ect. I guess a couple of commas would have helped there.

5. Can you trick nistune/ecu into thinking you are not at wot (initiating alpha-n enrichment) but then using your fuel map?

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Post by JKTUNING »

wannabethestig wrote: 1. Can nistune turn off the alpha-n maps for fuel?
2. Can nistune change this alpha-n map?
3. Can nistune change the alpha-n map trigger points?
4. If nistune can't do either and you account for the enrichment factor of the alpha-n map when you are creating your wot map does it matter?
No, it does not give access to the limit flag and/or the table.

The idea here is simple, you can think of it as a hybrid MAF/alpha N fuel map, which is perfectly OK to do on a naturally aspirated setup. But you will not find anyone doing this (if given the option) on a boosted setup, for the reasons that I have mentioned.
If you build the same amount of boost per given rpm all the time then i don't think it would matter much however in the real world this doesn't happen due to how much weight is in the car the gear you are in going up hill or down your shifting rpm temperature ect. Ect. I guess a couple of commas would have helped there.
If you start the pull at the same RPM and go through the same psi vs RPM relationship then it will be pretty close, that is why most people won't notice this. The issue is more when starting at different RPM points and transitioning into boost, your target AFR will basically be the same regardless if you are at atmoshpheric pressure or at 20psi.. it will use the same fuel map value for both.

Now, this is obviously more of an issue with higher boost cars and larger turbochargers but to me it still isn't the "right" way of doing things. This is why the alpha N limit flag is NOT present in any factory turbo Nissan ROM, it is only there on the factory N/A roms.
5. Can you trick nistune/ecu into thinking you are not at wot (initiating alpha-n enrichment) but then using your fuel map?/quote]

This isn't something I would advise doing as it can have other ill affects.[/b]
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Post by 8-bit »

JKTUNING: This last post of yours clarifies my point -- that most people won't notice.

This small detail, which most people won't notice or need to use, is something that people who are dedicated to squeezing inches out of their setup would do. Not something that any hobbyist or person not involved in serious racing should even care about.

To be clear:

-most setups will spool fully with far less than 80% throttle position.
-most street tunes have the same fuel enrichment values for 10psi as for 15psi, or more.
-most street tunes don't make boost over 17-18psi.
-most of the KA-T community needs street-level tunes (made on street or dyno, but for street and casual drag/track use).
-most turbos being tuned for are T3/T04E or less.
-the timing maps are read cleanly, which is what would matter, even if enrichment is static at some safe value.

I'm no salesman for Nistune. And I don't doubt at all that your product is superior. But I'm also a big proponent on helping people make choices about things they NEED and saving money over things they do not NEED. I will tell people to sell an SAFC in a heartbeat because we know it is so poor at addressing the issues, it must be replaced with real fuel and timing. But when it comes to small tweaks that most people don't need to achieve what they want, that is something I"m glad we discussed publicly.

People with extremely fine details to tune should be considering your gear, or a standalone. I'm not sure if there even is a difference, aside from cost, between your gear and a standalone. But most people want a great operating ripper homemade KA24DET vehicle, and for that, many other options are doable. We even recommend JWT/Enthalpy on this site. And you and I can both agree that a mail-order tune is not even close to what custom tuning can do in terms of addressing the specifics.

Cheers,
8
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Post by JKTUNING »

8-bit wrote:JKTUNING: This last post of yours clarifies my point -- that most people won't notice

This small detail, which most people won't notice or need to use, is something that people who are dedicated to squeezing inches out of their setup would do. Not something that any hobbyist or person not involved in serious racing should even care about.
The point here isn't about who will notice or should notice, it is the fact that is isn't correct. I have been tuning cars for a long time and map tracing WOT fueling is certainly something that I would like to see being shown correctly while tuning.
To be clear:
-most setups will spool fully with far less than 80% throttle position.
-most street tunes have the same fuel enrichment values for 10psi as for 15psi, or more.
-most street tunes don't make boost over 17-18psi.
-most of the KA-T community needs street-level tunes (made on street or dyno, but for street and casual drag/track use).
-most turbos being tuned for are T3/T04E or less.
-the timing maps are read cleanly, which is what would matter, even if enrichment is static at some safe value.
I am not sure what you are trying to prove here to be honest.. I understand that you have a bunch of tunes for these cars and they are all using the stock firmware. Sure, they will work and you are certainly doing a good job at helping people get on track.. but it still doesn't mean that the operation is correct.
I'm no salesman for Nistune. And I don't doubt at all that your product is superior. But I'm also a big proponent on helping people make choices about things they NEED and saving money over things they do not NEED. I will tell people to sell an SAFC in a heartbeat because we know it is so poor at addressing the issues, it must be replaced with real fuel and timing. But when it comes to small tweaks that most people don't need to achieve what they want, that is something I"m glad we discussed publicly.
I am actually going to take this to a PM, instead of blowing up the forum.

We have a distinct difference in what we feel is "needed".
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Post by 8-bit »

What does a person NEED to run a KA24DET?

Some retard the dizzy and use 370cc/n60 and the stock ECU.

Some us an SAFC.

Some us an SAFC + mailorder romtune.

Some use an AEM FIC.

Some use daughterboards.

Some use standalones.
--------------
The list of focused details that you didn't understand was made to provide a gist of the criteria surrounding the issue to illustrate how significant(or not) this fuel tuning difference may be for most KA-T users. When reflecting on those general points, it becomes clear that this difference is real, but may or may not matter to people depending on their situation.

The range of 'needs' is a relative thing. We fundamentally disagree on what a hobbyist (most of the people on here) needs. It's not worth going on and on about. My case is made and people can understand yours as well. The value in having this discussion is that people will know that the hardware you're selling is capable of more specific fuel tuning controls, and where that difference exists compared to Nistune/other boards -- and that's a good thing. But it's also important for people to know what value is actually gained in respect to their hobby, and that is a point worth explaining and elaborating. All of that is now complete. There really isn't much more to say.
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Post by JKTUNING »

8-bit wrote:The list of focused details that you didn't understand was made to provide a gist of the criteria surrounding the issue to illustrate how significant(or not) this fuel tuning difference may be for most KA-T users. When reflecting on those general points, it becomes clear that this difference is real, but may or may not matter to people depending on their situation.

The range of 'needs' is a relative thing. We fundamentally disagree on what a hobbyist (most of the people on here) needs. It's not worth going on and on about. My case is made and people can understand yours as well. The value in having this discussion is that people will know that the hardware you're selling is capable of more specific fuel tuning controls, and where that difference exists compared to Nistune/other boards -- and that's a good thing. But it's also important for people to know what value is actually gained in respect to their hobby, and that is a point worth explaining and elaborating. All of that is now complete. There really isn't much more to say.
I do agree with your above statements completely, and really there isn't much more to cover at this point.

I have always been a big proponent of helping people at the hobbyist level, that is one of the main reasons we started this project. After using what was currently available in the Nissan tuning world, I felt there was a huge void in a "decent" stock ECU based tuning software. I really hope that we can continue to offer you guys the best possible firmware/hardware for the stock ECU, with all of the features of a standalone but using the stock ECU.
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Post by AndrewHuffman »

wannabethestig wrote:
JKTUNING wrote:
wannabethestig wrote:Interesting feature set. It appears that someone with a 95 or newer car would have to convert to a s13 board and harness and that would cost $810.
Unfortunately, at this time we are OBD1 ECU based, so anything OBD2 would require a step down harness. I am really trying to get this price down, but since the conversion harness isn't as popular as say a HONDA conversion harness.. it is pricey. I would love to knock another $100 off of that price in the future!

Down the road this might change, but the next platform on our plate is the 6 cylinder VG and RB setups.
Good to know. 95 is a switchover year in that it is still obd1 but is capable of the obd2 controls.
I just got instance type f
4, a step down harness
My car is a 96.
what other alterations need to be done before I can hook this up?
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Re: NISTUNE???

Post by Bernardd »

I don't get on here very often anymore and thought I'd point out that you can either adjust the point (tps voltage) at which the fuel map is pushed over to the last column or you can turn off the function completely in nistune. The flag and alpha n tables are all accessible in Nistune.
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