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wheelzinmotion
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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 Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:46 pm Post subject: My own TY's WB SPL Upgrade Version |
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I just want to share with you guys what I found after a couple months of doing research through Nissan OEM parts and other interchangeable Nissan parts.
Later last year I visited my friend, who has several RB20, RB25 and RB26 engines in his shop and did some research that lead me to gather the following setup.
I learned that all RB20DET engines and early RB25DET engines share the same flywheel, consisting of a 240mm surface area. The flywheel of the early RB26DETT is a little bit different in thickness, but still is interchangeable between all of the above mentioned engines and also uses the exact same pressure plate as the 20 & 25 DETs, which happens to be the same as the one found in the 1982-1983 280ZX Turbo L28ET and 1984-1986 300ZX Turbo VG30ET. Then I compared the stock KA24DE flywheel to them, and they are completely interchangeable between all the aforementioned engines. Everything aligns perfectly, the starter to ring spacing is also perfect, and even the pilot hole aligns perfectly to the crankshaft.
Then I decided to do a search on lightweight billet chromoly flywheels and found that Gordon Duax sells these flywheels for the RB20DET engine, so I decided to purchase one, exactly like this one http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2F190004506512_W0QQfromZR40QQfviZ1&item=190004506512. The construction of the flywheel is outstanding. It is made in Japan from a single piece of billet chromoly, and it is a lot lighter compared to the stock flywheel. There are other companies that sell those flywheels, but without any doubts, the best deal around is offered by Gordon.
During the time of deciding which 240mm pressure plate brand I should buy (ACT, Nismo, Cusco, Exedy, etc.) another friend bought, for his SR engine, a JWT flywheel and clutch system who uses a 250mm pressure plate from a 350Z/G35 and ask him to lend me his 250mm pressure plate, so I could compare it to the RB bolt pattern. To my surprise the bolt pattern is identical to the RB, and for an even greater surprise, the flywheel that I have has the exact same contact surface to accommodate the 250mm friction area with no problems. Knowing all this I decide to purchase an ACT pressure plate for the 350Z/G35 and use a 6 puck sprung carbotic disc for the 350Z/G35.
As a side note, I also have several friends running 350Zs with the Greddy TT setup, and they are already producing over 500 ft/lbs of torque using that same ACT pressure plate, with no problems. The carbotic material has a higher coefficient of friction compared to the organic and even to the "common" metallic material aka bronze. Due to the higher coefficient of friction the engagement is quick and sharp. Then I proceeded to install the setup using a set of RB26DETT flywheel to crank bolts, which are a little bit longer with a new 350Z/G35 release bearing.
A few weeks ago I talked to Gordon and told him about my findings and took the opportunity to ask him about his stock of RB flywheels. Right now he has a few left on hand, including a Tomei and another one from an unknown brand. My guess is that these flywheels are going to start selling fast as Gordon has included in another of his auctions the KA24 application.
Basically, the ingredients to build what I think is the ultimate single disc clutch system for the KA24DE engine are the following:
- Flywheel from a RB20DET engines or early RB25DET or early RB26DETT or better still use an aftermarket flywheel from the previously mentioned engines (like the one pictured below and like the ones that Gordon sells) that don't the defined groove between the friction surface and pressure plate area. If your flywheel has the groove then the disc will not use all the contact area.
- Use a pressure plate, disc and throw out bearing from a Nissan 350Z. Depending of what your goal is, you must decide which route to go. Whether you need a stock setup or a racing setup, is up to your goals and expectations. A stock OEM setup is good to around 350 ft/lbs of torque. Wanting more than that then you should start thinking better pressure plate and better disc material. Like always, the "trade off" is increased pedal pressure and crisper engagement.
- Preferably use the flywheel to crank bolts from a Skyline GTR, as they are about 3mm longer, which compensates for the flywheel thickness.
Below are some pics of the process and final results. Enjoy...
This is the actual weight of the stock clutch system at 33.88 lbs
This is the actual weight of the aftermarket clutch system at 28.88 lbs. Lightweight chromemoly flywheel from an RB20DET engine and 250mm ACT clutch from the 350Z/G35. I was able to reduce mass for a total of exactly 5 lbs.
Our old trick for tightening the flywheel bolts.
Last edited by wheelzinmotion on Tue Jul 11, 2006 4:10 am; edited 1 time in total |
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EstoMax
Encyclopedia-Nissan
Joined: 02 Apr 2005
Posts: 1313
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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wow thats very impressive. had i known that about 6 months ago i may have totally gone this way hehe.
keeping this in mind for the next time i need to do a clutch job
thumbs up!
Marko
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MaxRPM
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Joined: 21 May 2005
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject: |
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| EstoMax wrote: | wow thats very impressive. had i known that about 6 months ago i may have totally gone this way hehe.
keeping this in mind for the next time i need to do a clutch job
thumbs up!
Marko |
oh... crap, me too |
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mach5camaroSS
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Joined: 06 Aug 2005
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Location: Fargo, ND
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| Posted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 5:18 pm Post subject: |
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damn now even more parts are interchangeable, what next rods and pistions LOL
that is great research hats off to you |
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tastyratz
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:19 am Post subject: |
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excellent find!
few questions:
To clarify, stock clutch weight vs aftermarket cl&fly... is that stock 240 clutch and fly weight, stock rb, stock 350, etc.
starter tooth engagement seems fine?
have you actually had a chance to drive car with this setup installed or is it stll a build in progress?
rb26 clutch selection... can someone say twin plate ka's amock?  |
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KoukiKAT
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 5:41 am Post subject: |
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Man, I'm glad I read this thread, because that's useful information. But, the thread title seems to have nothing to do with the content.
I mean, did anyone figure out "My own TY's WB SPL Upgrade Version" meant, "Check out this sweet flywheel/clutch combination"?
Anyhow, I say rename the thread and sticky it.
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niacin
Dreams of owning a 240!
Joined: 10 Jun 2005
Posts: 64
Location: Portland, Or
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| yea a little missleading, must be refering to another members post. regardless rock on for the info thats massive friction surface versus stock, wowza |
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wheelzinmotion
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:35 am Post subject: |
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| tastyratz wrote: | few questions:
To clarify, stock clutch weight vs aftermarket cl&fly... is that stock 240 clutch and fly weight, stock rb, stock 350, etc. |
I made the weight comparison by taking my used/worn 97 OEM stock 240SX clutch setup, composed of OEM flywheel, OEM disc, OEM pressure plate (PP) and six OEM pp to flywheel bolts and washers. Then weighted my new setup composed of a lightweight billet RB20DET chromoly flywheel (purchased to Gordon Duax), ACT 350Z/G35 PP, Carbotic 6 puck sprung disc for the 350Z/G35 and nine PP 8x1.25 mm grade 12.8 bolts and washers. The weight saving was exactly 5 lbs, even though I'm using a 250mm setup instead of the stock 225mm setup.
| tastyratz wrote: | | starter tooth engagement seems fine? |
Yes, starter engagement is 100% perfect ! ! ! No grinding, no noise. Simply PERFECT ! ! !
| tastyratz wrote: | | have you actually had a chance to drive car with this setup installed or is it stll a build in progress? |
The clutch bites hard and chirps 4th gear very easily. I haven't tried to chirp 5th gear yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did too. For my personal taste is a bit too aggressive, and when running with traffic is a little uncomfortable, because when engaging it vibrates enough for me... I knew the clutch was going to bite hard, as I have driven a few other 240’s with traditional 6 puck sprung metallic “bronze” clutches, but the carbotic seems to bite even harder than that. For that reason I will soon change the disc for the new ACT "Performance Street Disc" with P/N 3000409 and evaluate how it performs. We all know for sure that it will not hold as much torque as the carbotic, but still want to try how it behaves. Even though I only use my car a few times a month, I always want to try to keep the "stock like" feel whenever possible. For that reason I also installed a Nismo slave cylinder, and it did help alleviate the pedal pressure.
For now the street disc should be good enough, before I move my project to higher boost.
I'll keep you posted with the results as soon as I install the new street disc. |
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Devilstar
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 299
Location: Clinton Utah
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:54 am Post subject: |
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anyone else think this should be a sticky? its like a new white bunny setup lol.. i am curious how it works with a street disk, keep us updated..
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wheelzinmotion
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 8:03 am Post subject: |
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| KoukiKAT wrote: | Man, I'm glad I read this thread, because that's useful information. But, the thread title seems to have nothing to do with the content.
I mean, did anyone figure out "My own TY's WB SPL Upgrade Version" meant, "Check out this sweet flywheel/clutch combination"?
Anyhow, I say rename the thread and sticky it. |
I used this particular subject title because TY [Ryan Yap from AZ, aka White Bunny (WB)] had made a post a couple of years ago where he indicated how he found that is possible to use a 240mm clutch setup in a 240SX, by using a 240mm KA flywheel from a pickup or a modifying a flywheel from a 280ZX Turbo and also using a clutch setup from a 280ZX Turbo. That's how the name of White Bunny Special (WB SPL) was created, refering to the 240mm clutch setup. That's why I used such name, but yes you are correct, unless you know a little bit of history you probably won't read this thread.
I don't mind at all to have this thread sticky, for the contrary the more people use this setup the better. I like the idea of sharing knowledge among our community. That way we keep moving forward, and are better prepared against the competition.  The KA has been underestimated for quite some time, and that's why we need to continue showing people what our "truck" powered cars are capable of...
PEACE |
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adamky
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Joined: 31 May 2006
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Location: Louisville, KY
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:36 am Post subject: |
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I pretty much knew from the title what would be in here. I remember TY's post on Freshalloy years ago, so TY's WB special definitely rang a bell.
I guess that makes me an old school 240sx fan???
Great work in figuring all that out! :thumbs up:
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Sportlines/AGX, S15 Helical Diff with 4.6 R&P, I/H/E, OBD1 conversion to S13 ECU, Z32 MAF, JWT S1 cams, JWT cam gears, ASP underdrive pulley, NISTUNE ECU, Innovate LC-1/XD-16.
240sx owner for 9 years. |
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mach5camaroSS
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mach5camaroSS
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jmhalder
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| Posted: Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject: |
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| +3 |
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southjrz240
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Joined: 07 Apr 2005
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Devilstar
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 299
Location: Clinton Utah
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| Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 3:18 pm Post subject: |
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+ niner wait did i just hear a niner in there?
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| Kinematics wrote: | | Kouki 240s don't get you chicks, they get you retards. |
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tastyratz
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 871
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:04 am Post subject: |
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| this ish should be sticky cinnabon styyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyle |
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internetaardvark
NooB
Joined: 12 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| tastyratz wrote: | | this ish should be sticky cinnabon styyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyle |
Haha kurt your so geh
yeah Gordon Duax is an great guy, I got my s15 hlsd with output shafts from him. He just imported 3 more sets btw. He imports all kinds of drool worthy goodies from japan.
As far as the flywheel goes you said that they are all interchangable and that the starter gear ring teeth mesh fine, is the flywheel that you got any bigger than that off a 240, or is it the same diameter? |
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tastyratz
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| Posted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:11 am Post subject: |
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| flywheel has to be the same OD, just has more friction surface. If it was a larger OD, that would interfere with the starter teeth |
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wheelzinmotion
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 6:18 am Post subject: |
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| ^^ That's correct. Outside diameter is exacly the same as the stock one. That's why it's basically a "Plug & Play" affair. |
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2389cc_S14
240sx Wannabe
Joined: 06 Oct 2005
Posts: 150
Location: HI
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| Posted: Sun Jul 16, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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It's kinda hard to look for Skyline GTR flywheel bolts. Are there any alternatives? You could use the stock ka24de flywheel bolts, right? Just making sure...
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KoukiKAT
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 5:24 am Post subject: |
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I'll bet that ARP would have bolts that would be suitable.
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tastyratz
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Joined: 27 Sep 2004
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:32 am Post subject: |
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"preferably to compensate"
From the sounds of it you can probabbly get away with the stock ones, but for proper thread engagement you may want to opt for the longer bolts.
What about the d21 fly people usually use? is that one thicker? if it is maybe you can use the d21 bolts (probabbly easier to find) to hold the sky fly down. |
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95vr6man
240sx Wannabe
Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 174
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| Posted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:15 pm Post subject: |
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| couldnt you just find out the thread of the bolt and get one from a hardware store (a high grade bolt that is) thats slightly longer? anyway, +7 or 8 or whatever we are on for sticky, i wish i would have known this a couple of months ago when i just did a clutch install, GREAT FIND!! |
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tastyratz
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 4:46 am Post subject: |
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| Id imagine if we can get a part number things would cross reference and it wouldnt be that hard to get a replacement of. chances are it was used on 10 other cars. |
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wheelzinmotion
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Joined: 05 Jul 2006
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| Posted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: |
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During my investigation process I was amazed to find that the following engines used the exact same P/N's for the bolts. Even though sometimes you find an old school Nissan parts book with a different P/N, you will find another one that states that the old number has been superseded with a new P/N, which happens to be the same one used in our KA's. In other words the following engines use identical flywheel to crank bolts:
RB series engines (except the GTR engine) Because my friend had about 5 RB engines in his shop I was able to corroborate their physical dimensions and that's how I found that the GTR bolts were a little bit longer. However, think on this... The flywheel is originally designed and intended to be used on all RB20DET engines and the early RB25DET engines (IIRC produced until mid 95) which uses the exact same bolts of our KA engine. The engineers that designed the flywheel have had to take in consideration that the bolts will run a couple of mm shorter, however they still designed and sell it for the aforementioned applications. UNLESS somewhere they specify that those bolts need to be replaced in favor of the GTR's.
I have another brand new and exact same RB spare flywheel (NOT FOR SALE) at home and I believe I still have the bolts removed from my KA, so I can take a picture of how the setup will look like using the stock KA bolts. I can ask my friend to lend me one GTR bolt (in case he still has the GTR engine in his shop, because mines are already installed in my car) and take another photo of them side by side just for comparison purposes.
After I discovered that the GTR bolts were a little bit longer I decided to source and install them, just to have peace of mind.
Also, during the investigation I never came across another engine that uses the exact same P/N found on the GTR. Maybe its something unique for the GTR engine (like some parts of the GTiR SR engine which are different from the rest of ALL SR engines) or maybe they are shared by some other engines that I never come across...
I'll keep you posted, hopefully with more photos and info... |
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ares650
Dreams of owning a 240!
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 56
Location: miami, fl.
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Great info......good work! |
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titec2
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Joined: 30 May 2006
Posts: 686
Location: Montgomery AL
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| Posted: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:44 am Post subject: |
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| how about a + what ever we are on for a sticky on this. |
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need4gforce
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 28
Location: northern Va
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 5:12 pm Post subject: |
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This is great thanks alot man for sharing this great info.... now for some sources on the whree to buy rb20 flywheels other than that one on ebay... im hoping to find one for cheaper.... i wonder what the weight of the stock rb20 flywheel is???
OH YEH THIS WOULD MAKE A GREAT STICKY BY THE WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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KoukiKAT
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Joined: 15 Feb 2006
Posts: 214
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| Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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I'm putting a JGY Customs RB flywheel on my setup. It looks like a pretty nice piece for a good price.
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barrigas14
NooB
Joined: 08 Jan 2006
Posts: 5
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| Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:17 pm Post subject: |
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| wheelzinmotion wrote: | During my investigation process I was amazed to find that the following engines used the exact same P/N's for the bolts. Even though sometimes you find an old school Nissan parts book with a different P/N, you will find another one that states that the old number has been superseded with a new P/N, which happens to be the same one used in our KA's. In other words the following engines use identical flywheel to crank bolts:
RB series engines (except the GTR engine) Because my friend had about 5 RB engines in his shop I was able to corroborate their physical dimensions and that's how I found that the GTR bolts were a little bit longer. However, think on this... The flywheel is originally designed and intended to be used on all RB20DET engines and the early RB25DET engines (IIRC produced until mid 95) which uses the exact same bolts of our KA engine. The engineers that designed the flywheel have had to take in consideration that the bolts will run a couple of mm shorter, however they still designed and sell it for the aforementioned applications. UNLESS somewhere they specify that those bolts need to be replaced in favor of the GTR's.
I have another brand new and exact same RB spare flywheel (NOT FOR SALE) at home and I believe I still have the bolts removed from my KA, so I can take a picture of how the setup will look like using the stock KA bolts. I can ask my friend to lend me one GTR bolt (in case he still has the GTR engine in his shop, because mines are already installed in my car) and take another photo of them side by side just for comparison purposes.
After I discovered that the GTR bolts were a little bit longer I decided to source and install them, just to have peace of mind.
Also, during the investigation I never came across another engine that uses the exact same P/N found on the GTR. Maybe its something unique for the GTR engine (like some parts of the GTiR SR engine which are different from the rest of ALL SR engines) or maybe they are shared by some other engines that I never come across...
I'll keep you posted, hopefully with more photos and info... |
how much longer is the GTR bolt to the KA bolt? because i would like to see if i could find something at a hardware store. |
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need4gforce
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Joined: 24 Apr 2006
Posts: 28
Location: northern Va
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:18 pm Post subject: |
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| I emailed jgy.cc people and the guy said he doesnt think this willwork I even emailed them the link to this page......I would hate for this not to work after buying all this ****.... |
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minivan_don
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Joined: 05 Nov 2004
Posts: 244
Location: BC
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2006 8:14 am Post subject: |
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why would it not work? their fw is meant to be a straight replancement ...
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wcbjr
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Joined: 01 Jun 2006
Posts: 959
Location: DFW, Texas
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| Posted: Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:30 am Post subject: |
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I have an RB20 flywheel outside right now. I also have a KA24E flywheel out there right beside it. They have the same thickness, same diameter and same tooth pattern. The only difference is the clutch cover guide pins. Was this the case on the KA24DE the orignal post talked about? Do the 300/350 clutch covers fit the guides on the RB20 flywheel? Are the guides different on the KA24E and KA24DE flywheels?
Also, the flywheel bolts give the same amount of threads between the RB20 and the KA24E. |
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ares650
Dreams of owning a 240!
Joined: 10 Nov 2005
Posts: 56
Location: miami, fl.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject: |
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| wcbjr wrote: | I have an RB20 flywheel outside right now. I also have a KA24E flywheel out there right beside it. They have the same thickness, same diameter and same tooth pattern. The only difference is the clutch cover guide pins. Was this the case on the KA24DE the orignal post talked about? Do the 300/350 clutch covers fit the guides on the RB20 flywheel? Are the guides different on the KA24E and KA24DE flywheels?
Also, the flywheel bolts give the same amount of threads between the RB20 and the KA24E. |
Yes...this is the case. You use a 350z perssure plate with clutch on a rb20 flywheel |
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