ka24det ignition timing map in any standalone (Answered)

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ka24det ignition timing map in any standalone (Answered)

Post by puerkone » Tue Jun 12, 2012 8:36 pm

Ok so here is a picture of my engine swap..
Image

My KA24det should handle 500 hp. I am about to install 1200 cc bosch racing injectors. I got everything to make it happen. So the standalone ecu that I am running right now is Haltech PS2000. I am using a fuel and ignition timing maps from an sr20DET that was already tuned in a dyno shop. I got lucky to get this tuned map. So here is the issue that I am having. I am running about 15 psi of boost right now. The fuel map is pretty accurate to what I want for my air fuel ratios. I have 14.7 for idle and cruising and full throttle is about 11.5 to 12. So getting the right fuel at the right time is good. Now the issue is the timing. Although the KA24de engine and sr20det engine are both similar engines, they both run different timing maps. I noticed that because my car once it gets to 3000 RPM at 0 psi, the rpms climb slowly and I have to floor it harder to make the engine accelerate faster. My acceleration is really flat. So I messed with the timing the other day and the rpms climbed smoother and faster. air fuel ratios were perfect. I noticed 2 degrees of timing can do a huge improvement. So I am attaching a picture of my timing map. Maybe you guys can show me how a stock ka24de ignition timing map should look like because the timing map that I am using in my ka24det is out of an sr20det and maybe my entire timing map is waaay off.. Anyways let me know what you guys think or recommend. I know the timing is off so if you guys can guide me in the right direction then it will help me a lot to get my car ready for dyno tuning and save money of paying the tuner hour. Thanks.


here is a timing map. X axis is air pressure in (PSI) and Y axis is RPM
The red arrow shows the region on how the rpm climbs during full throttle.
Image
Last edited by puerkone on Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by airman » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:39 am

Stock timing map, second page of searching for "Stock timing map"

viewtopic.php?t=56064&highlight=stock+timing+map

Search a little more and you'll discover basic rules of thumb for how much timing to retard per pound of boost. For 91 without a knock light, I would retard probably .75° for every pound of boost.

Get a knock light and tune timing to that.

The timing map for an SR20 is going to be too retarded for our engines. The cylinder bore in the sr20 is smaller than in our engine, so the flame front across a piston in our engine has a little longer to travel than it does in an SR20.

The first link that you posted there has a great discussion on where you should start with timing.
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Post by puerkone » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:30 am

Ok kool. I am going to change the ignition timing to one of these three pictures to see which one runs best.. I got a knock sensor already and I got everything to tune. I am probably going to upgrade to the diy ka24de cas disk mod. They say that it is more accurate than the stock disk. thanks for the info. I will update the results thanks

this is from fast ka24det:
This map is for aem but it shows you good idea what it should look like.
I made this map so its up to you to use it but i think with 1 degreee you will be safe.

1st is .75 degree retard per psi
1.
Image
2nd is 1 degree retard per psi

2.
Image

this is from sleepy s-14:
Here is my latest map. Made 270whp and 290lbft. Word. Good safe map for anyone running a turbo that is good for 300whp or less.

3.
Image
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Post by sdaigle240 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:47 am

airman wrote: Get a knock light and tune timing to that.
unfortunately that doesnt work. it specifically says on the instructions the light must be calibrated with a proper knock detection device (uhhh lol). untill u determine the point of knock on a dyno or with cans the light is pretty useless. sure you can set it to juuust not flash on a safe tune, but thats worthless information. so basically a KL is only acurate when sensitivity has been set to a dyno tuned car.
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Post by puerkone » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:02 pm

you are right. well I was hoping to learn on this post how a stock ka24de ignition timing should look like,. I have turbo xs knock detection light and it helps me tell if it is knocking or not. so once I mess with the timing as much as I can then I can take it to a dyno tuner here in sacramento ca and then I can fine tune it through them. of course I know these maps will not give me the best timing but it is a good base map
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Post by sdaigle240 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:12 pm

i think your missing what im saying. for someone starting from scratch a TXS KL (i also have one) is damn near useless. you need to tune off theory, get to the dyno and nail down the onset of knock. a stock KA runs 24-26* or timing WOT. i would knock a full degree per psi off for now.
When fine tuning knock, it is recommended to use a quality knock listening system under controlled conditions to determine if knock is present or not. Light knock can occur and go undetected in the vehicle cabin under normal driving. If specialized equipment is unavailable, extra care in listening for knock is recommended.

pretend were talking about an adjustable FPR with no gauge... your flat out guessing how much to adjust it with out a pressure gauge. a KL is purely an adjustable flashy light, it must be calibrated to a "gauge" (dyno, cans etc) to give you any valuable information.


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Post by puerkone » Wed Jun 13, 2012 11:48 pm

I Understand sdaigle240. You are right it seems that I do not know much of timing but I can tell you one thing. I used these values in my new timing map and holy molley!
these values are very well tuned
Image

here they are same values except idle. My car idles better at 20 degrees than 16 degrees
Image

thank you sleepy-s14 you saved my life big time =D

this is a previous video of a datalog with the sr20det ignition timing map. I did WOT once and there was Preignition all over the place.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7BYyO8snxs

now here is a video with sleepy-s14 new ignition timing map values. All maps like fuel and corrections are the same and the only different map is the ignition timing.
the rpms climb super smooth in everygear =D here is a video of my datalog...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPRw9Zuu ... e=youtu.be

My car runs super awesome +D.. I recommend this this new ignition timing map. It is a good base map. Right now I drove the car with 610 cc injectors and it hauls ass. Even my knock detection light did not ever flash red. With my old timing map, my knock detection light was flashing red everytime I boosted my car . Now with the new map, it never flashes on me haha so happy =D.... so I am waiting for the 1200 cc injectors so I can install them and hopefully get 500 hp out of my engine. Now I can save up for dyno tuning and finish this tunin for sure. thanks guys for the replies....
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Post by sdaigle240 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:38 am

yeah 13* at 16# is pretty spot on...although sleepys14 is a SOHC no?
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Post by puerkone » Thu Jun 14, 2012 2:32 pm

true that it is for a sohc but well isnt a sohc ka24et ignition timing map more accurate to a ka24det ignition timing map than an sr20det ignition timing map? I suppose I still need to tune my car for better timing.
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Post by sdaigle240 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 7:12 am

still apples to oranges.

download tuner pro its free. go to 8-bit's tune thread and download an s13 .XDF and s14 .XDF, then you can download peoples tunes. in tunerpro talk u open the XDF which is liek a reader, then open the .BIN and you can see all the maps etc.

this thread is kinda chaotic but it has killer information. its not MAP based tuning but just read the posts and people tell what column is what boost.

viewtopic.php?t=54042&highlight=timing
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Post by schmauster920 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:13 pm

You tune a knock light at low rpm detonation so its not very dangerous.
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Post by sdaigle240 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:42 pm

what does that mean?

u saying to induce knock at low rpms and set to that? im prob mis interpreting but id pass on that.

find where the car stops making power on the dyno, knock it back 2* and set the pretty light to that. all it will tell u is if you got some **** gas or if your distributer slipped.

i know my timing is safe. so if i set the light to taht what does it tell me? that if i add 1,2,3* its going to start flashing, of course. u dont tune with a KA knock lite, maybe a DSM or standalone.

not meant to come off tuff. its definitely a topic worth discussing. but im pretty much just restating
sdaigle240 wrote: unfortunately that doesnt work. it specifically says on the instructions the light must be calibrated with a proper knock detection device (uhhh lol). untill u determine the point of knock on a dyno or with cans the light is pretty useless. sure you can set it to juuust not flash on a safe tune, but thats worthless information. so basically a KL is only acurate when sensitivity has been set to a dyno tuned car.
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Post by Matt Cramer » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:57 am

schmauster920 wrote:You tune a knock light at low rpm detonation so its not very dangerous.
That assumes the level of engine noise in the background is constant as RPM and load rises - which often is not the case.

We usually use a set of headphones to listen to a knock sensor while tuning on a dyno. Your ears often can do a better job filtering sounds than electronics. Which is why we built a headphone output into the MSPNP.
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Post by sdaigle240 » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:02 am

would something like chassis ears work well? its a bunch of allagator clips run to a channel selector with headphones. figured i could clip em to the block etc.
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