How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

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Walperstyle
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Post by Walperstyle »

I'm still working on it, but thanks for this:
p00t wrote:
NPD wrote:I am curious about the JWT cam card. Are those cam timing specs for .050" lift or at what they call ".0185" to compare to stock"?
The .0185 figure is for the advertised duration of 272. Which is basically when the valve begins to move. The only reason they rate it like that is for comparison of the stock cams which are rated that way. The .050 rating is for the 222 figure, which is better for comparison with other aftermarket cams.
NPD wrote:At the same time, they call out " 222 degree @ .050" which would make the total amount of duration quite similar to BC, Crower and Kelford.
Yep. but remember that doesnt really describe the slope of most of the cam so there could be a little more room for tweaks between just the printed numbers.
NPD wrote:Most of the other manufacturers call out their timing events at .050" lift, which in this case, IF JWT's specs are at .0185" lift I don't think it would be a very direct comparison of overlap.
All the information on the timing card will let you figure out ur timings at .050 lift. for example:

Centerline 121 intake, duration 222 at .050 lift -> (222/2=111 -> 121-111=10) So the intake opens at 10 deg ATDC. (222/2=111 -> 121+111=232 -> 232-180=52) So the intake closes 52 deg ABDC.

If you dont understand the math there are A LOT of cam degreeing how to's out there. Thats how I learned.

tryingtobebest: Cams are almost always rated with the intake at ATDC and exhaust BTDC.





BTW, collection of usefull threads involving BC, Crower, and JWT cam timing

How to degree cams, according to some guys that look like eminem (video)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MsqA-C3vGI

Great V3 crower and JWT thread
viewtopic.php?t=35724&postdays=0&postor ... s&start=20

where I get 123.5 and 118 numbers from
viewtopic.php?t=41779&highlight=crower

Brad D
viewtopic.php?t=35724&highlight=crower+cams

AMS
viewtopic.php?t=11747&highlight=head+modify

v2 BC cams
viewtopic.php?t=42833&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70



I'm obviously doing it wrong. See, I found centerlobe on my crank first (aka, set it to 123.5/124 ATDC), then attempted to adjust my Cam gear to that point, but couldn't get it close enough to put back on, the tension in the chain wouldn't allow it, even with tensioner uninstalled.
Last edited by Walperstyle on Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Walperstyle
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Post by Walperstyle »

Update: Can someone please check this?


INTAKE
CENTERLOBE TARGET 124 with DURATION 222 (as per crower cam specs at .05)

Math:
222/2=111 :: 124-111=13' ATDC (where Intake opens)

Math2:
222/2=111 :: 124+111=235 :: 235-180=55' ABDC (where intake closes)



EXHAUST
CENTERLOBE TARGET 118 with DURATION 222 (as per crower cam specs at .05)

Math: 222/2= 111 :: 118-111 = 7' ATDC (or is it suppose to be ABDC? where exhaust opens)

Math2:
222/2=111 :: 118+111=229 :: 229-180=49' ABDC (where intake closes)


OVERLAP:
6' of overlap?
I technically should have 6' of overlap no? Yet when I look at the cams when they turn, it doesnt look like I have any overlap at all.

Next question: Is this good for Crower V3's?




CROWER v3 QUICK REVIEW
Quick Overview
Nissan - KA24DE
Performance level 5 - Stage 3 - Forced Induction Race - Drag Race and radical Street/Strip. Requires #84184 spring kit and compatible ECU upgrade for optimum results. Lope at idle.
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 222°/222° RR: 1/1 Gross Lift: .401”/.401” LSA: 114° RPM: 1500 to 7000 Redline: 7500

Currently I'm getting these numbers when I physically check with the dial indicator, but I'd like to say that my dial indicator is not set on the same direction as the bucket/shim, it is slightly off due to height restraints of the setup I have.
Intake open @ 13' ATDC
Intake close @ 50' ABDC
Exhaust open @ 7' ATDC
Exhaust close @ 47' ABDC

So according to my dial gauge, i'm a little off, maybe I should produce a video on youtube with what I'm getting?
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Post by Walperstyle »

See this doesn't make sense. I should want my Intake to open BTDC correct? AND while its opening, my exhaust should be closing. ugh, this is annoying.

On top of all this, when I go to adjust my JWT cam gears, I take them off, turn the cam then struggle putting them back on to the point that I can never get it really where I want. Either the upper timing chain is too tight (even with tensioner removed) or the other Cam 'snaps' shut throwing everything off. (dual springs are annoying! with JWT cam gears!)

Starting to go crazy.
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Post by Walperstyle »

Using search engine I found this:
2 crank rev for 1 cam rev
19 teeth on the cam
360/19=18.947 * 2= 37.89 or 38 crank degrees.

also, centerline doesnt determine where the valves open. Actual valve events do. You need to set your cams up with the correct valve lash. v2's and v3's is .008 intake and .010 exhaust.

on v3's your intake should be open 3btdc/ close 43abdc exhaust is open 51bbdc/ close -5btdc.

This gives you an overlap of -3 degrees.

If you cant get exact valve opening points just get them as close as you can.
This still doesn't make sense, because if the intake opens at 3' before TDC, and the exhaust opens 5' before, that means there is NO OVERLAP. I thought you want overlap?!
Brb, going to the garage again. Btw, my lash is 0.006 on both.
Last edited by Walperstyle on Tue Nov 01, 2011 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by p00t »

Walperstyle wrote:
Currently I'm getting these numbers when I physically check with the dial indicator, but I'd like to say that my dial indicator is not set on the same direction as the bucket/shim, it is slightly off due to height restraints of the setup I have.
Intake open @ 13' ATDC
Intake close @ 50' ABDC
Exhaust open @ 7' ATDC
Exhaust close @ 47' ABDC
If you want 100% true numbers you will have to modify the dial tip, It sucks. I wound up taking a very thick piece of wire and bending it around to get around the cam and then threading the one end to fit in the dial. Others have made a thin point by grinding it.

Your numbers are flipped around the exhaust closes around TDC and opens before BDC on the compression stroke. Just need to remember that the max lift (center) point of the cam is ATDC for the intake and BTDC for the exhaust.

All these numbers are making me dizzy.
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Post by Walperstyle »

But I should have some overlap around TDC correct? between 6' to 8' my guess? While the Intake opening BTDC. I would think.

With the centerlines, I'm then looking for 124 ATDC Intake, and 118 ABDC exhaust. I'll try to get the center lines close to that and see what I have for overlap. Again...

I'm starting to think these crower v3 cams are retarded, or I'm not understanding how to use the JWT cam gears correctly.

This is what I'm doing
1) get the engine to lets say the centerline 124' ATDC for intake cam
2) take off upper timing chain and intake JWT cam gear.
3) rotate cam using dial indicator to ensure max lift on the bucket
4) install chain and jwt cam gear best I can, usually by rotating the cam gear itself, while having the chain 'fixed'. Sometimes I have to rotate the gear a lot to get it to even come close to lining up to any hole

Is this correct?
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Post by Walperstyle »

Well, I phoned JWT, dude there just said retard intake one hole, and advance exhaust one hole.

...I really think he wanted to get me off the line because all the info on this site tells me that the one cam is out 10 degrees.
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Post by Walperstyle »

Update:

Intake opens 13' BTDC
closes 31' ABDC
Exhaust opens 35' BBDC
closes 5' BTDC

12' overlap.
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Post by p00t »

Walperstyle wrote:
This is what I'm doing
1) get the engine to lets say the centerline 124' ATDC for intake cam
2) take off upper timing chain and intake JWT cam gear.
3) rotate cam using dial indicator to ensure max lift on the bucket
4) install chain and jwt cam gear best I can, usually by rotating the cam gear itself, while having the chain 'fixed'. Sometimes I have to rotate the gear a lot to get it to even come close to lining up to any hole

Is this correct?
If I'm reading this right you are setting the motor up for max valve lift before you remove the chain? Doesn't sound possible to get it done right this way. You always change cams and mark the chain with the motor at TDC after it's compression stroke. (1st cylinder cam lobes facing AWAY from each other) Maybe I'm reading it wrong?
Walperstyle wrote: Update:

Intake opens 13' BTDC
closes 31' ABDC
Exhaust opens 35' BBDC
closes 5' BTDC

12' overlap.
13' BTDC - 5' BTDC = 8 degrees overlap ?

Your numbers are screwed as you have 224' duration on your intake (OK) but 210' on your exhaust(NG). You may have some error in your measurement possibly different angles in your fixture when measuring intake/exhaust buckets.

When reading a cam card also keep in mind if they have -6 degrees ATDC this means 6 degrees BTDC. From the BC v3 cam card I see 8*BTDC int open and 3* ATDC exh close which would give you 8+3 = 11* Overlap @ .050" lift points.
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Post by Walperstyle »

keep in mind I have crower v3 cams, and not BC. May be different. The dial indicator I'm using is electronic, and allows me to zero it out, so even though the angle on the bucket may be off a little, its really not that much, and there is virutally no way I can 'bump' it.

Yeah sorry for the 12' of overlap, I was way off there. You are correct, I have 8' of overlap.


I'm just curious as to where I should be before I finish my engine and go to dyno it next summer. Should I retard my intake and exhaust one hole then?
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Post by p00t »

I am not sure what the crower specs are, but I would just make your setup matches the cam card (or is at least close within a few degrees). If you want to take it farther Cam tuning is tedious basically you do a dyno pull then adjust and check again etc, over and over again.

Maybe someone with experience with this cam has done some dyno time? :study:
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Post by Walperstyle »

Its the same old story. Crower V3 cam users came here with the same questions I had, then left, and never really mentioned exactly how they set them up. Brad in Winnipeg Canada has the same cams, and he was saying in a different thread that the intake is something like 10 degrees out. Thats maxing out the JWT cam gear. From what everyone was saying was the cam card was off. Just like BC was too.

I'm not 100% sure but I believe Crower and BC should be the same, but when it comes to the innital setup, I'm mostly looking for a ballpark figure for some better top end power.
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Post by airman »

I wanted to bump and to update this thread for anyone else who might be holding off on doing this because they may not want to buy or find new shims, but still wish to optimize their shim arrangement.

Warning, a little bit of math/nerd alert.

I wrote a MATLAB code (though crude and slow, it works) that will take the shims that you have and rearrange them to minimize the differences across all cylinders.

I have the head on the car and a trashed one making a total of 32 shims, so I figured I would do this and get as close to "best" as possible instead of iterating and "guessing" by doing it all by hand.

So this is what I started with:
Valve - Shim thickness - Clearance
I1: 2.13 - 0.330
I2: 2.16 - 0.305
I3: 2.21 - 0.279
I4: 2.23 - 0.279
I5: 2.22 - 0.330
I6: 2.15 - 0.381
I7: 2.17 - 0.331
I8: 2.20 - 0.254

E1: 2.20 - 0.305
E2: 2.20 - 0.305
E3: 2.22 - 0.330
E4: 2.20 - 0.305
E5: 2.22 - 0.305
E6: 2.24 - 0.330
E7: 2.22 - 0.305
E8: 2.24 - 0.330

So, if I'm targeting 0.010", or 0.254mm, I'm kind of far off and the clearance ranges from 0.010" to 0.015" which is a rather large distribution. I am missing my target by an average of 0.0023" which isn't bad, but also with a standard deviation of 0.0011". It's not terrible but I have a lot of room to improve, mainly because I know that I have one clearance at 0.010" and another at 0.015".

Using the MATLAB code and including the shims I have from the other head (luckily a little bit thicker), this is a configuration I ended up with:

Valve - Clearance
I1: 0.0118"
I2: 0.0108"
I3: 0.0110"
I4: 0.0118"
I5: 0.0102"
I6: 0.0119"
I7: 0.0106"
I8: 0.0112"

E1: 0.0120"
E2: 0.0120"
E3: 0.0126"
E4: 0.0104"
E5: 0.0124"
E6: 0.0130"
E7: 0.0120"
E8: 0.0110"

I still am a little far away from my target of 0.010", but I've evened out the differences across each cylinder and improved my overall clearances.

So, if anyone wants the code or wants me to run the code on the shims you have with the clearances you measured, PM me and I can get you a new arrangement :)
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Re: How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

Post by ka240de »

bringing up an old thread my apologies.

front to back my lash is:

intake

1) 0.016
2) 0.003
3) 0.016
4) 0.026
5) 0.028
6) 0.017
7) 0.013
8) 0.019

exhaust
1) 0.011
2) 0.008
3) 0.018
4) 0.012
5) 0.007
6) 0.011
7) 0.007
8) 0.006

these number have far too much variation cams were at 8.1 ft lbs when these measurements were taken, i dont under stand how some are under 0.013 ... full brian crower valve train stock s13 cams, combustion chambers have been polished would this affect where the valve sits and have tighter lash in some places ? and has anyone heard of 0.028 ? like holy ****..
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Re: How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

Post by adamky »

ka240de wrote:these number have far too much variation cams were at 8.1 ft lbs when these measurements were taken, i dont under stand how some are under 0.013 ... full brian crower valve train stock s13 cams, combustion chambers have been polished would this affect where the valve sits and have tighter lash in some places ? and has anyone heard of 0.028 ? like holy ****..
This is an old post but figured I would jump in and share my own experience. You had your entire bead rebuilt with parts that were not OEM Nissan. Part of the machining process involves machining the valve seats. If your machinist knows what he is doing, he will measure and record the valve stem height with the OEM valves still in the motor. Then, he will try and match this same height when cutting the new valve seats. This process is usually what causes variations in valve lash, and if he doesn't do it right, it can throw your lash way, way off.

I just had my head rebuilt with BC valves/springs/retainers. The machinist said that he checked the install height and tried to match it to the OEM specified height, but its hard to get all of them perfect. My intake side was actually really close to where they needed to be and I was able to get them all at .010". Exhaust side was quite a ways off. I had order several shims from Nissan.

Also, in the interest of keeping this info all together, I figured it wouldn't hurt to copy the info for my cam degree checking to over here:
viewtopic.php?p=530474#p530474
adamky wrote:Checking cam timing on my JWT S1 cams:
Image


This was a bit more of a chore than it's been in the past, but I'm sure some of that has to do with only getting 4 hours of sleep for the past few nights. Regardless of the cause, my results were... interesting.

Also, a little warning before you start reading: this is going to be a bit long, and possibly a bit pointless since I think I know what I am going to do (although I am still open to any and all advice). But, here's a peak into what has been going on in my head all day while checking cam timing and trying to decide what to change.

So, for starters, in case you haven't seen it yet, one of our members, Dustin, made a great thread on setting valve lash and cam timing: viewtopic.php?p=337400
If you get really bored and read through that whole thread, you'll see that at one point there was some confusion over the JWT cam card. The reason for that is the way that JWT had their cam card set compared to Brian Crower, Kelford, and really... most other companies that make aftermarket cams. BC cam cards have timing events (intake open, intake close, etc) specified at .050" of lift. Setting cam timing at .050" of lift is pretty standard in the industry. Kelford's cam card specifies the timing events @ 1.0mm or 1.27 mm of lift. 1.27 mm of lift is .050". But for some reason, the JWT cam card specifies events at only .001" of lift. If you take the numbers on the cam card and put them into a cam timing calculator, the duration comes out to 272 for both intake and exhaust, which is their advertised duration.

Here's the JWT cam card:
Image

Kfred was the first one to notice this and thankfully he made a thread about it, which helped to clear up some of the confusion I was having with setting my cams up: viewtopic.php?t=48513


So, when I went to set timing today, I decided too measure @ BOTH .001" and .050". I took my time doing this and I was really careful to get my dial gauge in line with with valve travel. I was really slow and careful about spinning the crank and measuring and checking everything 3 and possibly even 4 times. In other words, this was the most careful and precise I have ever been when checking cam timing.

Important information:
-Valve lash is @ .010" for both intake and exhaust
-I'm using a set of Greaser's awesome mechanically-locked timing chain tensioners. I set them as tight as I thought was necessary while trying not to overdo it. Bottom chain was easy. For the top chain, I rotated the crank until I had valve spring tension keeping the chain tight between the 2 cams and also keeping the right side of the chain tight to the idler gear. In other words, all of the slack was located at the tensioner. Then I simply tightened it up to get rid of the extra slack. BTW, I'm only mentioning this to say that while I'm not an experienced engine builder and have never set timing chain slack before, I got it pretty snug but I tried to let the valve spring tension do the majority of the work. And the only reason that I mention all of this is because I actually got MORE duration than advertised @ .001" of lift. Yeah, I know... WTF?

Anyways, here are my results:

@ .001" of lift
Intake Opens BTDC (ATDC is -) : 20
Intake Closes ABDC : 87
Exhaust Opens BBDC : 79
Exhaust Closes ATDC (BTDC is -) : 29


When I plug those numbers into http://www.wallaceracing.com/camcalc.php, this is what it spits out:
Intake Duration is 287.00 degrees.
Exhaust Duration is 288.00 degrees.
Installed Intake Centerline is 123.50 degrees ATDC.
Installed Exhaust Centerline is 115.00 degrees BTDC.
LSA is 119.3 degrees
Overlap is 49.00 degrees.


Comparing these to the cam card, my opening and closing events are 5-10 degrees off, but my centerline for the intake is only 2.5 degrees off, and the centerline for the exhaust is only 1 degree off.

What I don't understand is how I got more duration that what is advertised, but like I said, I was very meticulous and careful, checking everything over and over again. Also, the duration for both the intake and exhaust ended up within 1 degree of each other, so... :dunno: If only one of them was 287 and the other was 272, I'd be more likely to attribute it to me screwing something up.


As I mentioned, I also checked events @ .050" of lift. Here are the numbers:
Intake Opens BTDC (ATDC is -) : -17
Intake Closes ABDC : 51
Exhaust Opens BBDC : 45
Exhaust Closes ATDC (BTDC is -) : -9


Results from plugging them into the calculator:
Intake Duration is 214.00 degrees.
Exhaust Duration is 216.00 degrees.
Installed Intake Centerline is 124.00 degrees ATDC.
Installed Exhaust Centerline is 117.00 degrees BTDC.
LSA is 120.5 degrees
Overlap is -26.00 degrees.


Obviously, the opening and closing events are waaaay off, but the centerlines are only 3 degrees off for the intake and 1 degree off for the exhaust.


So, that's where I stopped and I'm not sure if I'm going to adjust either of them. I've seen various opinions on setting cam timing. The ones that come to memory were from Derek (Greaser) and Duron (duncan351)
BTW, PLEASE don't think that I am calling either of you guys out by posting your replies here. I'm just trying to show some of the information that I have gathered and share how I am applying this info to my motor and my needs/goals.

Derek says that maxing out your advance on intake and maxing out your retard on exhaust is the best because you end up with really good hp gains from 2K-6K. That makes sense and he's got dyno proof and many years of experience to back this up. The trade off is a rougher idle and you will lose power above 6K. Here are the two threads where he discussed that:
viewtopic.php?p=529536#p529536
viewtopic.php?p=529158#p529158

Long time and respected member Duron has dyno'd his car with various cam timing settings and I have seen him recommend retarding the intake 2.5 degrees and advancing the exhaust 2.5-7.5 degrees. He wrote:
duncan351 wrote:Turbo size doesn't even matter. This was the best happy medium for low end and top end power along with very good drive ability.

viewtopic.php?p=525015#p525015
viewtopic.php?p=529662#p529662

So, given this info, how should I set my cams up?
To recap my setup, my motor has:
-JWT S1 cams
-JWT cam gears
-BC valves (stock size)
-BC springs and titanium retainers
-Head has a 3 angle valve job, but the ports are untouched/stock
-ATI Super Damper
-Eagle rods, Wiseco 9:1 pistons
-Equal length exhaust manifold with a PT5857DBB (4" ported inlet and .64 A/R hotside)
-Xcessive Intake manifold with Q45 throttle body

While my initial goals are going to be mild due to running 93oct pump, I will eventually be installing my new fuel setup for E85 and cranking up the boost to 30+ psi. While I like the idea of gaining lots of power from 2K-6K rpm, I would prefer to have a decent idle. Also, with the built head and ATI Super Damper, I have plans to spin the motor to close to 8K rpm. So, I don't want to choke it off on the top end too much.


Applying this all to my car
The car will be a weekend fun car with occasional trips to the local 1/8 mile strip and probably a lot of roll races (in Mexico). So, I'm looking for a good middle ground for the cam settings. This leads me to believe that I should just leave them where they are at right now since they are about as close to the cam card as I can get them.

I appreciate and welcome any opinions for or against my thinking here.
Wiseco/Eagle, JWT S1 cams, BC valve springs, PT5857, ID1700 injectors, SR20DET ECU w/ Nismotronic, COP conversion with LS ignition coils, etc, etc...
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Re: How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

Post by ICEMAN.KCMO »

saving this to find it later. great info!
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Re: How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

Post by Jakemiller614 »

So I am new to ka’s but I have the bc 272 cams and bc dual valve springs and intake valve clearance can out to 0.012” but the cam card says 0.008” after reading this page people have different opinions. Am I good at the clearance I am at current or not?
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Re: How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

Post by p00t »

I've run more clearance on the stockers and BC stage 2's than .012" it shouldn't cause issues. You will likely lose a little of the specified duration and lift.
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