How To: Setting Valve Lash/Dialing in Cams

Basic tech questions such as future setups, different turbo kits, car diagnosis, etc
keytops
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Post by keytops »

ok lemme get this straight, I have my intake events:

io@ 18° atdc
ic@ 50° abdc
this gives them a CL of 106°

the Cam card specs -1 ATDC and 39° ABDC giving it a CL of 110° to I need to advance my intake cam 4° to be at BC's specs?
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Post by Kfred »

keytops wrote:ok lemme get this straight, I have my intake events:

io@ 18° atdc
ic@ 50° abdc
this gives them a CL of 106°

the Cam card specs -1 ATDC and 39° ABDC giving it a CL of 110° to I need to advance my intake cam 4° to be at BC's specs?
You have to input -18* since the intake opens atdc. If you do this you will find out that your intake cam has a centerline of 124deg, which is a very good starting point. I'd probably leave the intake alone for now.

Check the exhaust and see what you come up with
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Post by keytops »

**** duh! I thought something was off, that number looked totally wrong. I just left the intake till I could understand WTF and advanced my exhaust by 4. Thank you kfred wish I would have caught that. I've never degreed

I'll leave my mistake up so people can learn from it. I did the exhaust right with the - but not the intake.

My exhaust has these values if anyone cares lol
Exhaust open @ 41 BBDC
Exhaust close @ 10 BTDC (goes in calculator as a negative)
aka 4 degrees retarded from nominal. I'm going to order shims installing the cams really shows how much valve lash will affect the cams personality.

Ill retard the intake by 2 degrees tomorrow but the car does feel way better just advancing the exhaust alot smoother
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Post by TIREKILLER »

I have a question on this.

The FSM clearly states that the measured valve clearances for that equation should be made while the engine is "warm, but not running" as well as "Valve clearance (Hot):" above the specs.

Whats the verdict when assembling an engine on a stand? Obviously no way to get a hot measurement.
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Post by joshds25 »

TIREKILLER wrote:I have a question on this.

The FSM clearly states that the measured valve clearances for that equation should be made while the engine is "warm, but not running" as well as "Valve clearance (Hot):" above the specs.

Whats the verdict when assembling an engine on a stand? Obviously no way to get a hot measurement.
There is no difference between hot or cold I confirm this in my Head Build DVD.
And for the record the equation in the FSM is just retarded IMO.
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Post by TIREKILLER »

^^Thanks, i set em all to .012. hope it doesnt tighten up when it gets hot.

On to my next question.

Dealing with stock cams for now, cheaper to play around with and less chance of P/V issues. Question is mainly about overlap. This is a 9:1 piston engine with a 90.5 bore, and .040 HG. Its also been cut a few times top and bottom so comp. should be a bit higher than 9. No, i didnt have time to CC anything unfortunately. Turbo is a 2871, .86a/r w t4 comp., ebay mani., 3in. w/no muffler (still rear exit). looking to run 18-20psi.

Since its been cut etc. i expected the timing to be off and wanted to dial it in as best i could. So, by pulling the dowell pins and using just the sprocket bolt to keep the cams indexed, i started fiddling. ( do not attempt this unless you FULLY understand what you are doing) Once im happy, i will machine the cams and a installe the new pin exactly where i want it. From there, JWT style cam gears will allow fixed adj.



Ok so FSM says:
IO:-1 BT
IC:61 AB
EO:60 BB
EC:8 AT

So the cam calc. spits out,

7deg. overlap, duration 240/248

Ok looks right on the durration, but 7 deg overlap? Now i realize these are not @.050 numbers. So i set the cams up at those base numbers (taking my reading at .001 valve motion) focusing on IO and EC points. At the same time I took a reading @ .050 just to see what i got (#'s in parenthasees). Here it is.

IO: -1 (-28) BT
IC:88 (49) AB
EO:83 (55) BB
EC:9 (-28) AT

Calc says: 8deg. overlap, duration 267/272 (-56deg overlap, duration 201/207)

Ok so as you can see those are some funky numbers. I believe i remember hearing that there is a different metric standard for measuring durration (like @ lift in mm.) or is that just the metric equivilent to .050?

7 deg. of overlap sounds really really small to me. Both valves are practically ON the seat durring that short window. Much less the @ .050 #'s (no overlap).

Im thinking increasing overlap may help with both boost respoonse, creating peak cyl. pressure sooner and hopefully maintain enough velocity to have nice top end to boot.

I know that an NA car will lose alot of low end tq. with added overlap, but im thinking between the stroke of the KA, my somewhat high comp., and the relatively small size of the turbine would almost totaly negate that. The boost also makes me more comfortable about closing the intake a little earlier to get more overlap. Since the pressure should equalize much sooner with FI. So im thinking that an IO point of about 4-6 BT with a stock 9 AT IC. (remember thats at .001) Giving me an overlap of 13-15 deg.


Tell me if you think im crazy, got something wrong, any experience you may have etc.

Thanks
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Post by ILuvS13s »

well first of all the intake is opening at -1atdc. if it was btdc it would be positive. the exhaust close is 8 atdc. -1 + 8= 7 degrees.

second. the numbers you took for your intake closing and exhaust open events look really screwy. I think you are stopping too soon on your last crank rotation or something. your valve events should definately be closer to stock then they are. maybe you arent keeping your dial gauge parallel with the valve. Something is definately not right.

third. with the stock cams, I wouldn't worry about getting their exact numbers. just from the little decking you've done, the cams wont be off much. maybe a degree or 2 I'd bet. I would just put your dowels back in, get the jwts and play with your timings 2.5 degrees each way till you get power that you like.

remember more overlap means it will have a more peaky torque curve but the power will fall off sooner. Use the chart of the first page to help you decide on more or less overlap.

try closing the exhaust closer to tdc and opening the intake a little later.
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Post by TIREKILLER »

I got it. No the dial indicator wasnt set up wrong, Nothing was screwy, im probably just the first person to care this much about stock cams (or know enough about bluprinting). I can do math and i already knew that the stock cams should have 7 deg of overlap. Problem was Nissan doesnt specify a lift to take the duration reading at. I just backed it down from .050 untill i got as close as i could to advertised duration without going over. Ended up being .006 and i got 238/246. Heres what i have currently with the pins back in their new homes.

IO: 1 BT
IC: 57 AB
EO:57 BB
EC:9 AT

Giving me 10deg. overlap and 238/246 duration (duh)


And yes, the timing was WAY off with the gears in the stock location. Im missing at least .060 between the cams and crank, so its not just "a little decking". The exhaust was 12 degrees retarded (EC: 4 BTDC) and the intake was 8 (IO: 7 BTDC). Thats 3 deg. of overlap, less than half the stock spec, and the opening and closing events are occurring at completely the wrong time. The exhaust valve closed before TDC?! Not gonna make much power like that.

Anyway, thanks, for what it was worth.
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Post by TIREKILLER »

Also, since the lift and duration didnt change, the torque shouldnt be "peakier", but it will shift peak tq. up in the rpm range. This is exactly what im looking for. More top end hold (doesnt fall flat at 5500) or as much as i can get out of stock cams.

We shall see once the car gets on the dyno.
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Post by ILuvS13s »

TIREKILLER wrote: And yes, the timing was WAY off with the gears in the stock location. Im missing at least .060 between the cams and crank, so its not just "a little decking".

I was not aware that so much was taken off. in that case i would definately advise adjustment.. but you already know to do this.

The exhaust valve closed before TDC?! Not gonna make much power like that.

The reason I say to close the exhaust valve a little earlier is to cut down on the chance of boost blowing out of the exhaust valve, reducing cyl pressure. I didn't say to close the valve before tdc. Sounds like you got it though. GL.
240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
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Post by eazye2000 »

The more I read this, the more I am afraid to try and do this degreeing of my V3's... I'm already paranoid about setting the clearance on the buckets...

Who's local and wants to pick up a few extra bucks? :wink:
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Post by TIREKILLER »

Dont be scared, especially not of setting lash. This thread has everything you need to learn how to do it.

I would charge at least 4 hrs total labor (not including shims at $10 ea.) on something like this, and thats to do it with JWT gears or the like. Add 2 hrs for the way i did mine, since you have to un/install the cams 2 times each. Definately worth learning how to do it yourself. Nothing like KNOWING its done right.
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Post by eazye2000 »

^ Sounds like some solid advice.

I guess I have a few things going for me. I have 3 heads worth of good shims on hand. Plus, I have some rusted ones that I'm hoping my bead blaster can take care of. But I'm not counting on it....

I'm trying to talk the g/f into letting me get an ATI damper for the build. Maybe I can use that to help degree this crap. I have no idea what I'm doing, but I'm gonna go for it I guess. It wont be the first time I FUBAR'd something. LOL
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Post by eazye2000 »

Doing this tonight, and all this week if that's what it takes.

I'm also sketchy about Brian Crower V3's saying that for RWD, you chop the distributor drive off for the FWD, and then swap the cams around... Is this for real?

Anyways, I'll let you guys know how it goes. I'm going to fire up the compressor so I can chop up some V3's. Yeah, that's how I roll.... lol
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Post by adamky »

When I did mine, it did seem a bit overwhelming at first. But once you get going, it's not that bad at all. Just a matter of being careful and checking things twice.

I have no advice on cutting the dizzy drive off of the V3's. It would make me a bit nervous too.
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Post by eazye2000 »

Definitely overwhelming, but really not that difficult once you get your hands into it.
I made myself a spreadsheet, and wrote down everything. Just some simple math, but then again, I went to public school...
I have freshly lapped valves, and Brian Crower V3's

So this is what I came up with. Any help, or input is appreciated.
Stock Clearance is:
Intake (in) .014 and Exhaust (in) .015
Brian Crower Clearance is:
Intake (in) .008 and Exhaust (in) .010

What I have right now:
Intake Lash (in) Exhaust Lash (in)
1. .010 1. .012
2. .010 2. .011
3. .010 3. .010
4. .008 4. .009
5. .010 5. .010
6. .008 6. .010
7. .009 7. .012
8. .010 8. .011

So let me know what you think. This is the first time I've done this, so any input is appreciated.

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Post by eazye2000 »

So are the above clearances good? Or should I get them a bit closer?

Tonight is another night I'll mess around and see what I can come up with. I have to go through my shims again and see what I have.
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Post by revolutionz_s13 »

Hey, just a little quirk I noticed while reading all this tech goodness....I have the JWT S1 cams, and like the cam card you (ILuvS13s) posted, it specifies that the cold valve lash be set at .010"-.012". However, if you read JWT cam installation instructions, specifically page 3, #14, it specifies that the valve lash be set at .013"-.016", like SMRacing was saying. So.....which one is it? :?:
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Post by eazye2000 »

^ Yeah, I have no idea. I thought mine were kind of good right between Brian Crower and Stock specs...

I went through and got them all to .001" of what BC wanted. Or at least that's what my measurements got me. I have to bolt the cams back in and check again.

After I check the lash again, I'll post up and we can discuss. I'd like some input from the people who have done this. I PM'd the OP, and haven't gotten a response yet.
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Post by ILuvS13s »

revolutionz_s13 wrote:Hey, just a little quirk I noticed while reading all this tech goodness....I have the JWT S1 cams, and like the cam card you (ILuvS13s) posted, it specifies that the cold valve lash be set at .010"-.012". However, if you read JWT cam installation instructions, specifically page 3, #14, it specifies that the valve lash be set at .013"-.016", like SMRacing was saying. So.....which one is it? :?:
Not sure why it says to use that lash. The title of the install page is not cam specific. It just says installing camshafts in ka24de. So I'm not sure if that should be taken into consideration or not. You could always call HWT and ask them.. As far as I've always been told, you should always use the lash listed on the cam card. Just get your lashes within .001-.002" of your cam's cam card and you should be good. If you like to be a perfectionist and squeeze all the power you can out of the cams.. then get the lash perfect.
240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
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Post by marko76 »

sticky? I'm thinking this info is good for a lot of guys on here, and should be made into a sticky...
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Post by eazye2000 »

I definitely vote sticky. This is some damn good information. Maybe someone can host the pictures on a server that wont disappear ever.

Going to check my lash again and post up one more time. Then the heads getting bolted on, and that's it. I'm done with this stuff.

....then it's degreeing the damned things ugh
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Post by ILuvS13s »

i havent arranged my photobucket for this reason. lol. if I move them, then id have to correct every picture. As far as making it a sticky, it is in the Hall of Fame sub forum, but I don't think many people look there. Thanks for the support though. I appreciate it.
240drew wrote:will someone go thru and show me how to wipe my ass? I am really confused, does the paper go in? ( I am just kidding) I am a bit bored.
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Post by Walperstyle »

I have a question:

If I had both exhaust and intake shimmed to 0.006 instead of 0.008, how would I adjust to the Cam card? Or do you think that little bit of pre-mature lift will not make a difference?
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Post by Walperstyle »

by the way, this link may help people with installing cams.
http://jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf/CA ... KA24DE.PDF
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Post by p00t »

Walperstyle wrote:I have a question:

If I had both exhaust and intake shimmed to 0.006 instead of 0.008, how would I adjust to the Cam card? Or do you think that little bit of pre-mature lift will not make a difference?
The clearance is there so that as the valves (exhaust mostly) heat up and expand you will still have enough clearance to allow the valve to fully close. You can take some material off of the end of the valve stem or measure and change out the shims for thinner ones to meet the card's spec.
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Post by Walperstyle »

I see what you are saying. I got some tight shims because I was under the impression there was no heat expansion... but that was just on the shims itself, not the valves.
I was going by www.240sxtechdvds.org being they took the shims on the head build dvd and hit them with a torch, and it didn't expand.

Either way, I'll try my tight shim setup and see what happens.
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Post by Walperstyle »

Bump, need some help

Degreeing my V3 Crower cams.

I am having issues with the JWT cam gears and how to use them. I had my engine at Factory Timing using the marks on the chain (as seen on my youtube channel, search walperstyle).

Problem. When I set my center line for my intake, I then take off the JWT cam gear and rotate the cam but instead of getting 123.5 Degrees that I want, I can only get it to 120 Degrees. The Chain won't physically allow me to put the cam gear back on.

Any tips on how to properly use the JWT cam gears?
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Post by p00t »

Walperstyle wrote:
Any tips on how to properly use the JWT cam gears?
have you looked at the JWT instructions? http://jimwolftechnology.com/wolfpdf/CA ... CTIONS.PDF

You can only change in 2.5 degree intervals with these cam gears.

You might have to take the upper timing cover off if you cant get the tensioner to stay retracted while your messing with everything.

Mark the chain and then take both sprockets off put the exhaust sprocket on the chain with the mark lined up. Now push the cam gear against the cam and rotate the cam till it locks in and tighten the cam bolt. So the same for the intake but you will have to push/lock the tensioner in to get enough slack in the chain.
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Post by Walperstyle »

double post
Last edited by Walperstyle on Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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