How to run CBR coils

Advanced discussion of improving KA-T components
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

How to run CBR coils

Post by BRAD D »

Thanks to alot of guys i got this to work :cheers:

UPDATE: The Twin Fire broke down after 8 hours of running time, So now i will show how to hook up a MSD DIS-4
list of things you will need to do it the way i did.

For that story look here viewtopic.php?t=25310&highlight=

-AEM EMS
-AEM Twin Fire box
-CBR F4i coils and the plugs to go with them
-Denso IK24 or NGK BKR8EIX ( over 400whp) BKR7EIX ( under 400whp) They are all IRIDIUM plugs. it is hard to find coppers with screw off tops that will fit the CBR coils... if you find any let us know :D

Wiring for the Twin fire
I would mount the twin fire inside the car, away from the heat.. i put mine in the stock ECU location (my ECU is in the glove box, it would not fit in the stock spot very well)

there are 3 switches on the twin fire box, i have them all on, you can turn # 1 off once you are all set up (#1 is the multi-strike switch, having it no will make it easier to set up the timing)

The two thin Red wires from the twin fire i tapped into (not cut) the ECUs black with red stripe wire. This wire fed the + for the old stock coil. if you cut this wire the ECU will not fire up the fuel pump (even though the AEM says this wire is available). Thick red to the starter with blade fuse (not **** glass one that comes with the twin fire, black to the - on the batt, other thin white to my shift light.
white - AEM trigger #1
green - AEM trigger #2
yellow - AEM trigger #3
violet - AEM trigger #4

#1front of motor counting up to the back of the motor #4, not firing order
Brown - #1 coil - black wire
orange - #2 coil - black wire
blue- #3 coil - black wire
gray - #4 coil - black wire
tan - #1&3 coil + color wire
pink - #2&4 coil + color wire

Setting up the AEM EMS, plug in these values

ignition> advanced ING> ignition phasing> options IGN phasing

*the top ignition sync changes car to car so no need to copy it*
Image

setup> sensors> cam/crank sensor> options cam/crank setup

Image

options> coil

*set 1, 2, 3 & 4 just like this*
Image

ignition> advanced ING> coil dwell setup> coil dwell

*dont know if you need to do this step*
The coil dwell wisard sets it to 30 for all CID units, might be a good idea to start there.
Image


now you have to set up your timing

*car needs to be on for this*
configure> ECU setup> set ignition

CHECK FOR TIMING DRIFT


let me know if i need to fix this up,or make it more clear

The MSD DIS-4 install update

The MSD needs a rising edge triger (trigges on the upward change of the ground) With out this the MSD would not fire

The Plug is the same as the AEMs. so if you are swaping you dont have to do any thing.

How I did this was... pulled the 8 side screws and 4 bottom ones out of the AEM EMS. Took the board out and seperated the two boards (you can see the male and female plugs in the center of this photo) this is pretty tricky you just have to work it out slow and even. I used a small plastic drift to work the center out.

Image

Then I moved the jumpers JPC1 JPC2 JPC3 and JPC4 (JPC5 is for coil #5) there are 3 pins for each, 2 pins are joined by the jumpers **NOTE: This photo below is how it comes stock (stock config is on pins 1-2; pin 1 is labeled with the #1)...to configure it for direct fire ignition (coil on plug) make jumpers 1-4 sit on pins 2 and 3...You can leave jumper 5 the way it is.

Image

Boom it fired up 1st time.
Last edited by BRAD D on Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:44 pm, edited 4 times in total.
User avatar
tryingtobebest
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:16 pm
Location: Canada

Post by tryingtobebest »

WOW, man thanx for such a good explanation of this BIG PROBLEM.....
R@mon
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:27 am

Post by R@mon »

sweet, glad to see it worked out for you 8)
User avatar
serturbo
Dreams of owning a 240!
Posts: 53
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 9:45 am
Location: Kauai, HI
Contact:

Post by serturbo »

Nice job on the write up.
Brandon
89 240SX (work in progress)
92 Civic VX (ITR'ed)
ares650
Dreams of owning a 240!
Posts: 55
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2005 6:17 am
Location: miami, fl.

Post by ares650 »

Great info....
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

r@mon wrote:sweet, glad to see it worked out for you 8)
Thanks a ton for your info, By making this "how to" you might have less peploe asking you 100 questions... like i did to you :oops:
R@mon
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 184
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2006 9:27 am

Post by R@mon »

BRAD D wrote:
r@mon wrote:sweet, glad to see it worked out for you 8)
Thanks a ton for your info, By making this "how to" you might have less peploe asking you 100 questions... like i did to you :oops:
lol yah hopefully, but its all good, just wanted to share info that wasnt available to me when i was doing it.
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

so are you using the AEM twin fire 8 channel or the 4 channel? Another question..where did you purchase your twin fire??
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

I got the 4 channel from a local store here in winnipeg... Turbo240/AMS on this forum is a dealer for AEM.
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

BRAD D wrote:I got the 4 channel from a local store here in winnipeg... Turbo240/AMS on this forum is a dealer for AEM.
Another important question for ya..
What made you get the twin fire instead of others like the MSD DIS-4 or the AEM c2di?

See, this is the only thing I need to complete my setup in order to raise the boost to like 34psi on my 35r. I've got everything else, aem ems, cbr coils, etc etc. I actually used your map back in August to get my car down to atlanta to TopSpeed for my tune which i made 471rwhp @ 23.5psi before the spark started cutting out. Just now getting things back together and just need an ignition box capable of making a good spark at 34psi. I'm shooting for at least 600whp..

I believe that AMS is running the MSD DIS-4 on the drag 240 and was plannin on goin that route, but now that you put up this excellent install/configuration thread I just might have to go the twin fire route.
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

Well Most ignition boxes are junk... all but some name that comes from down under.. but its BIG $$$. The AEM C2Di got a bad name because they were junk.. from what I hear the new Twin Fire is alot better now.. but I can not tell you 1st hand. I like the way the box looks and the size of it.. MSD might be a better option, but I know two guys that had them fail (one last year, one this year)...

All I can say is to mount it in a good spot not close to any heat.. and it wil have a better chance.

Call AMS, they install boxes on alot of cars and they will tell you what one has worked for them.
eluminati
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 36
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:22 pm
Location: Miami, FL

Post by eluminati »

BRAD D wrote:Well Most ignition boxes are junk... all but some name that comes from down under.. but its BIG $$$. The AEM C2Di got a bad name because they were junk.. from what I hear the new Twin Fire is alot better now.. but I can not tell you 1st hand. I like the way the box looks and the size of it.. MSD might be a better option, but I know two guys that had them fail (one last year, one this year)...

All I can say is to mount it in a good spot not close to any heat.. and it wil have a better chance.

Call AMS, they install boxes on alot of cars and they will tell you what one has worked for them.
i love you guys, i am right now trying to do this. This should be stickied.
SM240
Knows Some Stuff About 240's!
Posts: 494
Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Location: NO,LA

Post by SM240 »

This IS gonna be a sticky......RIGHT?
Awesome job though,this is something Ill definitely look into doing in the future.
LT_Z
Dreams of owning a 240!
Posts: 59
Joined: Wed May 16, 2007 11:09 pm

Post by LT_Z »

Got any pics ?
User avatar
DMS13
Dreams of owning a 240!
Posts: 88
Joined: Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:42 pm
Location: NJ
Contact:

Post by DMS13 »

I am in the process of doing the CBR COP with Megasquirt and AEM CDI
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

LT_Z wrote:Got any pics ?
Just this one of the bay.. and one of the plugs with the screw off top (still on in the pic)

Image
Image
User avatar
tryingtobebest
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 168
Joined: Sun Apr 02, 2006 10:16 pm
Location: Canada

Post by tryingtobebest »

Are you in a Winnipeg, Manitoba??? You gotta be kidding me......

I want to come over to have a look at your car!!!)))

How much was that "AEM Twin Fire box"???? what is the number or how do i order the same one?????
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

well i ordered that twin fire box today and i hope this write-up is gonna get me goin! so BRAD, this write-up definitely works, right? if i follow just what you did with the wiring and AEM EMS then i should be good to go, right?
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

Yep good old winnipeg haaha. Never seen my car? I dont drive it a ton.

the MSD box i got from Motion, i dont know what i paid for it.. it was some time ago.
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

I'm wiring this up tomorrow and was just wondering something..that spark plug you're using in the pic isn't a screw-on kind is it? Is it ok to use that kind that you have in that picture or should we use a screw on kind? I just dont really know
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

The one in the pic is a Denso IK24, and yes it is screw off top (still installed in the photo.

You do need the screw off tops, the plugs wil not pop in to the coils other wise.
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

BRAD D wrote:The one in the pic is a Denso IK24, and yes it is screw off top (still installed in the photo.

You do need the screw off tops, the plugs wil not pop in to the coils other wise.
i thought that we had to run the kind that actually had threads on the top of the plug.. i swear i've seen this type of plug somewhere..maybe it's on my bike lol i dunno
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

Hey BRAD, question for ya man...my engine is still not in the car so that's why i'm getting my ignition and dual pump setup ready so i can just drop the engine in and be ready to go. I'm kinda wanting to minimize problems that i come across, so when i put the engine back in and do the initial startup i'm just gonna be on the stock ignition/distributor/sparkplugs. I'm just super paranoid that if i throw something like this in the mix right away that i will run into problems. I just want to make sure the engine will at least start before i throw the twin fire into the mix. well, is it ok to at least hook up the twin fire to the coils(leave them aside...not in the engine), hook up all the twin fire wires to the AEM EMS trigger wires, hook up the big thick red power wire to the 12v source, but NOT HOOK UP THE GROUND WIRE and still be able to use the stock ignition? What i'm saying is can i have the twin fire totally hooked up like it should be, but leave the ground wire covered up and not hooked and leave the AEM EMS settings as if i was running stock ignition? I just want to get this hooked up so after i figure out that the car will at least run on the stock ignition then all i have to do is screw down the twin fire ground wire and set the AEM EMS settings. just wasnt sure if i could do all this since i had to wire it into the AEM EMS too.


One more question for ya..a year or so ago i did the famous "distributor mod" where you take the distributor apart, cut some brass tab in there below the 360 degree wheel, and then solder a "trigger wire" to that piece that we cut and run the wire outside the distributor. Is that necessary when using this ignition with the AEM EMS? If we don't have to do that, then i have another un-modified distributor sitting around here that i can pop in.
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

Well Coil # 1 tirggers your stock coil.. so no you cant do that..

And all the mods I did to the coil are gone now did not need them with the twin fire, all that is hooked up to the dizy is the CAS plug.. not the coil plug.
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

BRAD D wrote:Well Coil # 1 tirggers your stock coil.. so no you cant do that..

And all the mods I did to the coil are gone now did not need them with the twin fire, all that is hooked up to the dizy is the CAS plug.. not the coil plug.
ok, so here's what i CAN do...with the Aem twinfire not in the car at all and the aem trigger wires untouched..

Once i get the car running on the stock distributor and i know that the engine is runnning fine on stock ignition, then i can wire the TwinFire to the aem trigger wires, wire the twin fire to the CBR coils, and ONLY have the CAS plug hooked into the distributor, right? The distributor doesnt need to be modified with a trigger wire at all does it?


dang i was kinda wantin to get this twin fire wired up, but not powered on and hoping that was gonna be ok, but i guess not.
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
Nissankat
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 115
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 4:20 pm
Location: Jacksonville FL

Post by Nissankat »

Wow Brad nice write up. This will be my next project I just ordered the coils. I think its great that your not only innovating but that your sharing the knowledge with the rest of the community. Thanx
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

Just to up date... i got the NGK plugs in the other day, just to have a spare set.... turns out they did not have the screw off top. although the #6 i had did have the screw off top....

Funny the box for then showed that thew did not screw off with a little pic on the side... i wonder if they come in the other style :?
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

BRAD D wrote:Just to up date... i got the NGK plugs in the other day, just to have a spare set.... turns out they did not have the screw off top. although the #6 i had did have the screw off top....

Funny the box for then showed that thew did not screw off with a little pic on the side... i wonder if they come in the other style :?
so what do you recommend as far as plugs goes? should we just get those densos or is there another option?
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
BRAD D
KA-T.org Featured Ride
KA-T.org Featured Ride
Posts: 2164
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 9:02 am
Location: winnipeg

Post by BRAD D »

I'm running the Denso plugs.. had to get them from ebay, IK24s.... I wanted to go with NGK because i could order them in town here.... I still find it odd that the #6 had the right top.. but the same part# in the 8 did not...
wildbama37
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 633
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:13 pm
Location: Kingsport, TN

Post by wildbama37 »

BRAD D wrote:I'm running the Denso plugs.. had to get them from ebay, IK24s.... I wanted to go with NGK because i could order them in town here.... I still find it odd that the #6 had the right top.. but the same part# in the 8 did not...
how's the TwinFire doin so far? I'm anxious to hear how yours is doin because i'm still waitin for my block and head..should get em back at the end of this week or early next week. And hopefully have the car runnin a day or two after i get everything back. my tune is june 23rd so i gotta get this clutch broken in!
98 240sx
06 Lamborghini Gallardo
02 Mitsubishi Montero Sport
99 Infiniti QX-4
07 Suzuki gsxr-600

Image
Post Reply