How to run LS1 Coils
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- 240sx Wannabe
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Re: Just Installed!
yes town! when do we get to dyno sheets? and......i need to ask you a question about what downpipe you ran with the 2871r.Impetus wrote:So to answer my own question, yes they do work in a internal coil KA24DE. I started the install on Fri. and finished tonite. great info guys. Although some of my settings were different to get it started and running properly everything was spot on. My tuner said that it was attributed to every car just being different. thanks again guys will post pics.
- Kamilitaryman
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- Walperstyle
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question: the red circle on this, is this basically from the center part of the distributor? aka, that part of the harness in front of the upper head front cover
It would be nice to have a better wire schematic instead of these pictures. Being I am kinda color blind, its difficult to see what all you connected in a bus, and what is separate.
Pic in question for my question.
It would be nice to have a better wire schematic instead of these pictures. Being I am kinda color blind, its difficult to see what all you connected in a bus, and what is separate.
Pic in question for my question.
- Walperstyle
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I think your over complicating the wiring, its really really simple.
charge trigger ground and trigger ground
Tie the 12v charge lines together to a thick wire run it to battery
tie all the grounds together and run it to battery.
Run each of the 4 trigger wires to the aem ems pins for ignition 1-4 respectively. Stock ignition wire is coil 1.
7 wires total
I tied to a gm factory harness so it was slightly simpler for me.
Different coils have different pinouts whether its ls1/ls2/truck/etc. I wish I went ls2/truck instead of ls1 after I did my reading, but ls1 is more than enough anyways. Plenty of pinouts out there for whatever one you go with, just find a cheap set and google it. I added some more useful info to this thread too.
I like all the grounds going to 1 spot so there's no difference, people run them tied and have no issues.
Done, just change your map after that per instructions. You can change those things, and resync your timing - then keep your map the same without retuning if you want.
charge trigger ground and trigger ground
Tie the 12v charge lines together to a thick wire run it to battery
tie all the grounds together and run it to battery.
Run each of the 4 trigger wires to the aem ems pins for ignition 1-4 respectively. Stock ignition wire is coil 1.
7 wires total
I tied to a gm factory harness so it was slightly simpler for me.
Different coils have different pinouts whether its ls1/ls2/truck/etc. I wish I went ls2/truck instead of ls1 after I did my reading, but ls1 is more than enough anyways. Plenty of pinouts out there for whatever one you go with, just find a cheap set and google it. I added some more useful info to this thread too.
I like all the grounds going to 1 spot so there's no difference, people run them tied and have no issues.
Done, just change your map after that per instructions. You can change those things, and resync your timing - then keep your map the same without retuning if you want.
- beercandrifter
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would like to know if anyone has run this with the stock ecu as well. dont have the calumrt yet, but have reached a point where i need to replace my coil anyway.AK-Z wrote:Ok. Is there a way to run coil packs with a sotck ecu or nistune setup?
how is the dwell time determined from the stock setup? ecu? dist?
91 240sx Hatch: HomeBrwd
25psi hx35/8.8:1/264^2 cams/95lb injectors/Megasquirt 2/ka24de build **RIP**
T56/4.8 LSx/LS9 Cam/60lb injectors/comp 918 springs/Megasquirt 3/all custom wiring
25psi hx35/8.8:1/264^2 cams/95lb injectors/Megasquirt 2/ka24de build **RIP**
T56/4.8 LSx/LS9 Cam/60lb injectors/comp 918 springs/Megasquirt 3/all custom wiring
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- 240sx Wannabe
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First off, you can run this upgrade as long as you have an ECU that can drive 4 individual coil outputs. AFAIK, the stock ECU and stock ECU variants do not have this ability. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
The Emanage Ultimate claims to be able to run 4 coil outputs based off the distributor signal.
The AEM EMS can obviously drive 4 coil outputs.
Now, my questions:
I just upgraded my car to LS2 coils, which apparently require more dwell time than the LS1 coils (as per AEM wizard). I've read they're both ground triggered, and that they're just the same as LS1 coils with more spark intensity (per megasquirt coil page). I've also seen a writeup of someone using LS2 coils on an RB, and under the assumption that Nissan ECUs operate similarly, LS2 coils should work on my car.
However, I'm getting some pretty massive spark blowout. Unfortunately, my wastegate won't keep boost under 10psi, so I was stuck gapping down plugs today to get a decent run in autocrossing. These things were breaking up at 10psi with the plugs at around 0.024, which used to run fine on the stock coil at 0.030. So, now I'm looking back at what to do about my coils.
Here's my theory:
The stock KA distributor (and I'd guess most Nissan COP (coil on plug) setups) uses a single igniter. To keep from frying it at 100% dwell, you run it at 66 - 75% duty cycle max (I read one person state 44% dc is the magic number). On the AEM EMS, this is your Dwell Max setting. Since the stock dizzy has to fire 4 times per revolution (each revolution of the CAS disk equaling two engine revolutions), and there are 24 teeth, you're firing every 6 teeth. Thus, the stock setting of 4.5 Max Dwell on the AEM keeps the coil from constantly staying on.
Applying this to the LSx setup, you're now firing 4 individual coils. Each coil should, in theory, have 24 teeth for the CAS to go through before firing again. Thus, when converting to individual coilpacks, shouldn't Dwell Max also be changed to accommodate the longer available charge time?
Some rough calculations:
At 4000rpm, with 24 teeth per rotation, and 1 min = 60000ms, you're going through:
4000 rev/min * 24 teeth / rev = 96000 teeth / min * 1 min/ 60000ms
= 1.6 teeth / ms or 0.63 ms/ teeth
Dwell max @ 4.5 teeth at 4000rpm = 2.81ms
Dwell max @ 18 teeth at 4000rpm = 11.25ms (completely unnecessary, but allows the full 5.5ms charge)
And then near redline (because who stops at 6500 anymore?):
7000 rpm @ 4.5 teeth = 1.61ms
7000 rpm @ 18 teeth = 6.43ms (still allows a full 5.5ms charge)
Someone please let me know if I'm way off-base here and should just buy LS1 coils like everyone else, or if I'm actually getting at something useful. Also, sorry for the long winded post. I'm just running this all through my head trying to figure out possible solutions before next week's test & tune.
The Emanage Ultimate claims to be able to run 4 coil outputs based off the distributor signal.
The AEM EMS can obviously drive 4 coil outputs.
Now, my questions:
I just upgraded my car to LS2 coils, which apparently require more dwell time than the LS1 coils (as per AEM wizard). I've read they're both ground triggered, and that they're just the same as LS1 coils with more spark intensity (per megasquirt coil page). I've also seen a writeup of someone using LS2 coils on an RB, and under the assumption that Nissan ECUs operate similarly, LS2 coils should work on my car.
However, I'm getting some pretty massive spark blowout. Unfortunately, my wastegate won't keep boost under 10psi, so I was stuck gapping down plugs today to get a decent run in autocrossing. These things were breaking up at 10psi with the plugs at around 0.024, which used to run fine on the stock coil at 0.030. So, now I'm looking back at what to do about my coils.
Here's my theory:
The stock KA distributor (and I'd guess most Nissan COP (coil on plug) setups) uses a single igniter. To keep from frying it at 100% dwell, you run it at 66 - 75% duty cycle max (I read one person state 44% dc is the magic number). On the AEM EMS, this is your Dwell Max setting. Since the stock dizzy has to fire 4 times per revolution (each revolution of the CAS disk equaling two engine revolutions), and there are 24 teeth, you're firing every 6 teeth. Thus, the stock setting of 4.5 Max Dwell on the AEM keeps the coil from constantly staying on.
Applying this to the LSx setup, you're now firing 4 individual coils. Each coil should, in theory, have 24 teeth for the CAS to go through before firing again. Thus, when converting to individual coilpacks, shouldn't Dwell Max also be changed to accommodate the longer available charge time?
Some rough calculations:
At 4000rpm, with 24 teeth per rotation, and 1 min = 60000ms, you're going through:
4000 rev/min * 24 teeth / rev = 96000 teeth / min * 1 min/ 60000ms
= 1.6 teeth / ms or 0.63 ms/ teeth
Dwell max @ 4.5 teeth at 4000rpm = 2.81ms
Dwell max @ 18 teeth at 4000rpm = 11.25ms (completely unnecessary, but allows the full 5.5ms charge)
And then near redline (because who stops at 6500 anymore?):
7000 rpm @ 4.5 teeth = 1.61ms
7000 rpm @ 18 teeth = 6.43ms (still allows a full 5.5ms charge)
Someone please let me know if I'm way off-base here and should just buy LS1 coils like everyone else, or if I'm actually getting at something useful. Also, sorry for the long winded post. I'm just running this all through my head trying to figure out possible solutions before next week's test & tune.
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As an update:
I verified that the dwell setting on the LS2/LS7 GM# 12573190 coil packs are being controlled by the AEM EMS. Basically i turned dwell down really low and obtained the expected results: complete spark blowout at less than 5psi. With dwell up near 6ms things went back to "normal", and I was able to hit 10psi with small hesitations from spark blowout. Also, running the AEM's Dwell Max to 15 teeth had no noticeable effect (good or bad).
The next thing I'll check is plug wires, to see if the crimped down NGK's aren't making a strong enough connection.
I verified that the dwell setting on the LS2/LS7 GM# 12573190 coil packs are being controlled by the AEM EMS. Basically i turned dwell down really low and obtained the expected results: complete spark blowout at less than 5psi. With dwell up near 6ms things went back to "normal", and I was able to hit 10psi with small hesitations from spark blowout. Also, running the AEM's Dwell Max to 15 teeth had no noticeable effect (good or bad).
The next thing I'll check is plug wires, to see if the crimped down NGK's aren't making a strong enough connection.
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Spark teeth are set the same as the OP, which is the same as the SR's base calibration. I still have the Dwell Max set to 15 teeth, and my dwell never drops below 6ms. My general thought at the moment is: the system is functioning, but something is limiting from delivering max power. I'm swapping the coil side terminals on my NGK plug wires, and I also have a spare set of Accel wires to try out. The NGK coil terminals have tabs bent in which I think are preventing solid contact with the coil, so I'm hoping I can remedy that. I'd also like to reground my coils to make sure they're getting full power.
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I considered the possibility that the coils were always firing in safe mode, as they supposedly discharge beyond 8ms dwell. I tested it with dwell extremely high and it did get slightly worse.
Currently I can part throttle my way under light boost (5 - 8psi) all the way up to redline, which indicates to me that the problem really is the power output of the coils or the transfer of energy to the plugs.
Currently I can part throttle my way under light boost (5 - 8psi) all the way up to redline, which indicates to me that the problem really is the power output of the coils or the transfer of energy to the plugs.
You should as a precaution because your changing the ignition phasing since your adding 3 more coils to the whol ignition system.
Aceinhole great work and thanks for contributing your research. Are you using the dwell specified by the coil dwell wizard for the LS2 coils? Id use what is recommended by AEM unless your having issues. They test the coils on a bench.
Aceinhole great work and thanks for contributing your research. Are you using the dwell specified by the coil dwell wizard for the LS2 coils? Id use what is recommended by AEM unless your having issues. They test the coils on a bench.
2JZGE NA-T -SOLD
10.3@131 27psi
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Update:
It turns out I'm getting timing drift at higher RPMs, causing the engine to feel as though it's hitting a soft rev limiter. The ignition looks as though it's retarding roughly 5 degrees as it revs up, which shouldn't be a huge deal except that my ignition map was extremely conservative. I'm now running my normal ignition map, pulling about a degree of timing per lb. of boost. I'll be doing some testing with the AEM to try to get things perfect, starting with Ignition Sync and Pickup Delay Comp.
Also, I'm now running Accel wires with the following settings:
Coil dwell is at the AEM Wizard settings for LS2 (Corvette '05+) Coil Packs
Dwell Max at 15
Ignition Sync is at 24
Pickup Delay Comp is at 40 (didn't play around with it much yet though)
One question, though. Has anyone logged Sync Teeth and Sync Errors?
It turns out I'm getting timing drift at higher RPMs, causing the engine to feel as though it's hitting a soft rev limiter. The ignition looks as though it's retarding roughly 5 degrees as it revs up, which shouldn't be a huge deal except that my ignition map was extremely conservative. I'm now running my normal ignition map, pulling about a degree of timing per lb. of boost. I'll be doing some testing with the AEM to try to get things perfect, starting with Ignition Sync and Pickup Delay Comp.
Also, I'm now running Accel wires with the following settings:
Coil dwell is at the AEM Wizard settings for LS2 (Corvette '05+) Coil Packs
Dwell Max at 15
Ignition Sync is at 24
Pickup Delay Comp is at 40 (didn't play around with it much yet though)
One question, though. Has anyone logged Sync Teeth and Sync Errors?
PJ: I have,
If your getting any sync errors... at all - you have a problem.
I needed to get the new cas wheel for exactly that problem, the aem was all over the place with ignition timing. Ran like a champ after and was accurate. If you have problems plan on a retune
Also, turboka: yea you should resync. Mine was off, but its a drastic ignition change - take the 4 minutes to make sure everythings safe.
Also: The ls1 coils are pretty close to ls2 coils, I speak of what I read on ls1 coils. The failsafe causes them to dump the charge at 8ms no matter what to keep from overheating- but you will kill them quick getting close to that. Many people running them safely run 6ms charge time, I changed mine and played it safe around 5.4ms idle with a slope to 5.2ms at higher rpm. You also want to keep it under a 65% duty cycle or you will REALLY fry them.
Just cranking the numbers will get you in trouble, but this is not a maiden voyage - people run these coils on all sorts of cars. You can get a lot more juice out of them without causing any problems if you do it properly.
If your getting any sync errors... at all - you have a problem.
I needed to get the new cas wheel for exactly that problem, the aem was all over the place with ignition timing. Ran like a champ after and was accurate. If you have problems plan on a retune
Also, turboka: yea you should resync. Mine was off, but its a drastic ignition change - take the 4 minutes to make sure everythings safe.
Also: The ls1 coils are pretty close to ls2 coils, I speak of what I read on ls1 coils. The failsafe causes them to dump the charge at 8ms no matter what to keep from overheating- but you will kill them quick getting close to that. Many people running them safely run 6ms charge time, I changed mine and played it safe around 5.4ms idle with a slope to 5.2ms at higher rpm. You also want to keep it under a 65% duty cycle or you will REALLY fry them.
Just cranking the numbers will get you in trouble, but this is not a maiden voyage - people run these coils on all sorts of cars. You can get a lot more juice out of them without causing any problems if you do it properly.
If you had sync problems that log would light up like a christmas tree and your timing drift would likely be fairly inconsistent.
There are a few different channels though, I don't know which is relevant (i.e. there's a sync errors as well as an error sync option)
I just logged absolutely everything I could find with the word sync in it to play it safe.
If that isn't it you might have a Houdini distributor.
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.p ... 577.0.html
Some of them switch teeth. Because of the vast variety of nissan optical pickups I wouldn't be surprised if there were any high rpm switches.
Maybe your sync values switch at high rpm but it stll sync's.
Think its consistently 5 deg off or variable?
There are a few different channels though, I don't know which is relevant (i.e. there's a sync errors as well as an error sync option)
I just logged absolutely everything I could find with the word sync in it to play it safe.
If that isn't it you might have a Houdini distributor.
http://forum.aempower.com/forum/index.p ... 577.0.html
Some of them switch teeth. Because of the vast variety of nissan optical pickups I wouldn't be surprised if there were any high rpm switches.
Maybe your sync values switch at high rpm but it stll sync's.
Think its consistently 5 deg off or variable?
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- 240sx Wannabe
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It seems consistent. I'm pretty sure I just need to tweak my settings in. My timing is very conservative either way. 33deg at 0vac taking out 1deg of timing per lb of boost. It could probably be advanced slightly more, but I'd like to verify that it's not drifting before changing anything. Most likely it'll stay how it is for the DC ProSolo as to not take any chances screwing with a setup that we know works.
- nismo_dreaming
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am still using the stock 97 nissan dist to get signal for the coils, with the stock cas disc, should i put 24 spark teeth or leave it at 6(stock)?,
am currently having problems getting them to fire correctly, yesterday coil #4 would not fire, switched wires around with coil #3 to see if it would fire, coul 3 fired but coil 4 did not, so i guessed coil 4 was fried from the beginning.
now today i got a new #4 coil, now coil 4 is firing but coil 3 isn't(wiring is correct, did the same thing as yesterday with coil 4, which is kind of weird since coil 3 was firing fine yesterday.
btw this is TheOne's friend, were both working on the car.
1 last thing, does it matter if both ground wires go to 1 place, or does it have to be 1 goes to the head the other goes to the ecu?
am currently having problems getting them to fire correctly, yesterday coil #4 would not fire, switched wires around with coil #3 to see if it would fire, coul 3 fired but coil 4 did not, so i guessed coil 4 was fried from the beginning.
now today i got a new #4 coil, now coil 4 is firing but coil 3 isn't(wiring is correct, did the same thing as yesterday with coil 4, which is kind of weird since coil 3 was firing fine yesterday.
btw this is TheOne's friend, were both working on the car.
1 last thing, does it matter if both ground wires go to 1 place, or does it have to be 1 goes to the head the other goes to the ecu?
1996 240sx SE LS1
I wanted to take a moment to clarify some earlier information. I switched over to ls2 truck coils (the ones with the heatsinks):
When people say the colors are reversed, it means the wire for #4 goes to #1, and #3 goes to #2. Harness is fine.
I changed from ls1 coils and all I did was swap the order of my plug wires - car fired right up after and ran mercilessly. No swapping inside the aem of pins for triggering, no switching positive to negative triggering, nada.
When people say the colors are reversed, it means the wire for #4 goes to #1, and #3 goes to #2. Harness is fine.
I changed from ls1 coils and all I did was swap the order of my plug wires - car fired right up after and ran mercilessly. No swapping inside the aem of pins for triggering, no switching positive to negative triggering, nada.
I wanted to add more to this.
I did nothing more than start the car the other day and gave it a go yesterday.
The car was running fine with the ls1 coils, but now I noticed the ls2 truck coils I actually have a lot of misfires/stutters/etc.
Anyone run into any issues like this?
I didn't run any "suppressors" like they recommend on the msd page, did anyone else?
I'm wondering if I need to re-route my 5v signal wires away from the 12v charge wire more...
It definitely feels ignition related, the car is fouling plugs running idle, and my afrs are wavering from the pops, and its stalling with heavy misses. This isn't even driving this is all in place (no way comfortable driving it).
Im thinking stronger spark, more noise.
I did nothing more than start the car the other day and gave it a go yesterday.
The car was running fine with the ls1 coils, but now I noticed the ls2 truck coils I actually have a lot of misfires/stutters/etc.
Anyone run into any issues like this?
I didn't run any "suppressors" like they recommend on the msd page, did anyone else?
I'm wondering if I need to re-route my 5v signal wires away from the 12v charge wire more...
It definitely feels ignition related, the car is fouling plugs running idle, and my afrs are wavering from the pops, and its stalling with heavy misses. This isn't even driving this is all in place (no way comfortable driving it).
Im thinking stronger spark, more noise.