Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this over?

Discussion on Turbo electronics including Boost Controller, Turbo Timers, WideBands, etc
Post Reply
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this over?

Post by MostHated »

Hello all,
I have been working on this spreadsheet for over a week trying to make sure I have everything correct (diagrams and notes are included in the spreadsheet). If anyone has some time and knows MS3/MS3x, can someone look it over before I start soldering things to make sure I have everything right? I would greatly appreciate it! If everything is right I am more than happy to let this site, as well as the Megasquirt site have it as a reference for anyone else doing a KA24E install. ( it could probably use some optimization, as not all wires installed on the MS3 and Ms3x harness are necessary for most people, but I plan to use quite a few of them. Also more wires than necessary are installed on the MS3 and MS3x harnesses because it was originally premade for a Miata and the fella who made it installed a lot of the extra ones "just in case" you planned to ever use other things)

Thanks,

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

Was there another thread about this? Let's keep them together (or was that your build thread?)

Comments:
Main power feed, pin 28 - do not need all three. I only use 47 per the DIYPNP docs
Crank tach in, pin 24 - do not need both. I only use 30 per the DIYPNP doc
O2, pin 23 - it is correct that 19 is the stock narrowband o2 sensor input in the harness, but since you're probably using a wideband, consider going directly to the megasquirt box instead of having to splice into your harness on pin 19 to bring in the o2 sensor input.
Are you using the stock IAC? If so, probably need to bring that out of a PWM capable output (not IAC A or IAC B fyi). You may also need to add a flyback diode as well.
Correct about using 31 or 40 for the cam input (only need one though)
the stock harness does not have a crank sensor shield terminating at the ecu - I would recommend not connecting pin 2 to 116.

Pullups:
need to add a pull up resistor between tach input and 12v
need to add a pull up resistor between cam input and 5v
There might be an elegant way to do this within the ecu itself; otherwise, you'll need to add resistors between signal and 12 or 5 volt in the harness

ECCS relay - when ignition switched is turned to on or start, 12v is sent to pin 36 and the stock ecu then sends a ground signal to pin 4 to trigger the EFI/ECCS relay, which provides 12v power to the crank angle sensor. The DIYPNP has a built in relay available that is used for this, but you'll need to figure out a similar end result (either by rewiring the eccs relay to trigger off of the ignition switch and not the ecu, adding an external relay, or using perhaps one of the ms3/x inputs/outputs but I'm not familiar enough to tell you directly)
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

BigLoukaT wrote:Was there another thread about this? Let's keep them together (or was that your build thread?)

Comments:
Main power feed, pin 28 - do not need all three. I only use 47 per the DIYPNP docs
Crank tach in, pin 24 - do not need both. I only use 30 per the DIYPNP doc
O2, pin 23 - it is correct that 19 is the stock narrowband o2 sensor input in the harness, but since you're probably using a wideband, consider going directly to the megasquirt box instead of having to splice into your harness on pin 19 to bring in the o2 sensor input.
Are you using the stock IAC? If so, probably need to bring that out of a PWM capable output (not IAC A or IAC B fyi). You may also need to add a flyback diode as well.
Correct about using 31 or 40 for the cam input (only need one though)
the stock harness does not have a crank sensor shield terminating at the ecu - I would recommend not connecting pin 2 to 116.

Pullups:
need to add a pull up resistor between tach input and 12v
need to add a pull up resistor between cam input and 5v
There might be an elegant way to do this within the ecu itself; otherwise, you'll need to add resistors between signal and 12 or 5 volt in the harness

ECCS relay - when ignition switched is turned to on or start, 12v is sent to pin 36 and the stock ecu then sends a ground signal to pin 4 to trigger the EFI/ECCS relay, which provides 12v power to the crank angle sensor. The DIYPNP has a built in relay available that is used for this, but you'll need to figure out a similar end result (either by rewiring the eccs relay to trigger off of the ignition switch and not the ecu, adding an external relay, or using perhaps one of the ms3/x inputs/outputs but I'm not familiar enough to tell you directly)
I appreciate the detailed response. I only did multiple wires to the 47 and 30 circuits because Matt from DIYAutoTune said Nissan had multiple inputs like that possibly for redundancy in case something went wrong with one of the wires, so at least there is some fault tolerance I guess?

I do have a wideband and can easily pull that wire out, I have not put the casing together or anything yet, as I want to make sure the wiring is good first.

Any particular reason for not using pin 2 for 116? Matt from DIY said all grounds on the MS3 main board can be used as either sensor grounds or engine grounds with no issue. (unless you have experience otherwise?) I have no issue swapping it with something else, and recommendations?

I was under the impression that making the jumper wire from pin 36 to 4 would be all that is needed? (at least based on the documentation) If this is not the case, what do you think would be the best way to resolve the issue? I want the car to be as legit as I can and try not to half ass things, but at the same time do not want to have to rewire the entire harness (exaggeration, but you get the idea).

This is the first I have heard though of needed resisters, I hate to say, I am not sure what a "pull up" resister is, would have be in the rest of the kit that came with my Ms3? (someone else built it and I bought it from them but they included all unused parts), where would I solder this, between the wire of the MS3 and the DIYBOB?
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

MostHated wrote: I appreciate the detailed response. I only did multiple wires to the 47 and 30 circuits because Matt from DIYAutoTune said Nissan had multiple inputs like that possibly for redundancy in case something went wrong with one of the wires, so at least there is some fault tolerance I guess?
In fact, probably not a bad idea. Especially if Matt gave the go ahead, don't change anything
MostHated wrote:I do have a wideband and can easily pull that wire out, I have not put the casing together or anything yet, as I want to make sure the wiring is good first.
Roger. For me (using the DIYPNP), I kept my o2 sensor input on the same pin as stock, and then modified my engine harness to pull the wideband signal in that way. It will work either way, but you can avoid an unnecessary connection point if you don't do the following:
WB signal > pin 19 on engine harness > DIYBOB pin 19 > MS3 o2 sensor input.
Instead, I would bypass your engine hardness and DIYBOB and go direct to the MS3 connector
MostHated wrote:Any particular reason for not using pin 2 for 116? Matt from DIY said all grounds on the MS3 main board can be used as either sensor grounds or engine grounds with no issue. (unless you have experience otherwise?) I have no issue swapping it with something else, and recommendations?
This link shows the hall/optical sensor wiring: http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... .4-74.html
The figure shows both crank sensor ground and the shield grounding to signal ground at the megasquirt. Signal grounds should be kept separate from regular power grounds, and pin 116 should be considered a power ground (power grounds = connections to bare metal/engine; signal grounds/returns = low voltage reference for signals to be referenced to)
Without a shield connection at the stock ecu, I would just leave pin 2 open.
MostHated wrote:I was under the impression that making the jumper wire from pin 36 to 4 would be all that is needed? (at least based on the documentation) If this is not the case, what do you think would be the best way to resolve the issue? I want the car to be as legit as I can and try not to half ass things, but at the same time do not want to have to rewire the entire harness (exaggeration, but you get the idea).
Unfortunately, pin 36 will be providing +12v to pin 4, where you really need pin 4 to be pulled low for the EFI/ECCS relay to activate and provide +12v to the CAS. The documentation for the DIYPNP makes use of a relay circuit inside the box that turns the +12v input on 36 into ground on pin 4.
Do you have the 1989 FSM? I took a screen grab of the wiring sheet that shows the two relays (fuel pump and EFI).
Perhaps the easiest way to do this would be to add another relay (near the ecu) to take the pin 36 +12v and activate a ground switch that feeds pin 4, leaving both pin 36 and pin 4 disconnected from the megasquirt box. I would probably add this after the DIYBOB so the engine harness stays intact and stock. so from the DIYBOB, take pin 36, and connect it to the relay side of an automotive relay (other side to ground). On the switch side of the relay, connect one side to ground (any ground) and the other to pin 4 of the DIYBOB.

MostHated wrote:This is the first I have heard though of needed resisters, I hate to say, I am not sure what a "pull up" resister is, would have be in the rest of the kit that came with my Ms3? (someone else built it and I bought it from them but they included all unused parts), where would I solder this, between the wire of the MS3 and the DIYBOB?
A pull up resistor is a way to force a signal input to voltage high (either 12v or 5v depending on where your pull up is connected) in the absence of the connected sensor from overpowering that voltage and outputting ground.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... .4-73.html
This page of the manual has a picture of what a signal without a pull up resistor would look like. Essentially, you need to be sure that the tach input signal fed to the megasquirt is a distinct difference between low and high, so as the sensor reads a "tooth", it outputs ground/low, and when it doesn't read a tooth, then the pull up resistor ensures that there is a drastic difference in voltage. It is essential for the megasquirt to interpret the tach signal input.

Which method are you using to bring the tach signal in and process it? You're either using VR1 or Opto for the crank signal (VR2 would be used for the cam signal in) and you select this by soldering a jumper wire between Tach select and the desired input method (http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... .4-74.html)
That link also shows what a pull up resistor and how to connect it would look like.

I realize it feels like drinking from a fire hose with some of the electronics speak (I was there too) but it will all come together
Attachments
Capture.JPG
Last edited by BigLoukaT on Tue Mar 15, 2016 4:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Trust me, I appreciate the **** out of you helping like this.

I can easily remove the o2 from the diybob and wire it right to the MS3 and will be sure to do so.

I just got reconfirmation from Matt and DIY that it would not matter or be an issue to put 116 on pin 2, his words were "Main board ground pins may be used for shield ground or signal ground; the board does not distinguish between the two. MS3X grounds, however, are always power grounds."

Unfortunately those links you sent all take me directly to the main page of the MS3 manual and not to specific pages.

I am trying to visualize how to do the relay as you are saying. Would something like this be a good idea? How many amps should it be? 4 pin I am guessing?

http://www.amazon.com/Fastronix-Waterpr ... tive+panel

Or these which are cheaper. http://www.amazon.com/Support-Relay-Spd ... 1292772011


I do have a copy of the FSM and have been going crosseyed staring at it the last week or so, doing similar to yours for finding grounds and what not, lol. http://i.imgur.com/gfEUvaB.jpg

So would it be like this? A new wire from pin 36 from the BOB would come out of the box instead of in to it, connect to that relay, a ground wire would then connect to the car from the relay, and then the "connect to component" pin would go back in to the box and connect to pin 4 on the BOB? What would go to the 12v in, anything? Then that could be all it needs?
Image

Tach signal is going from KA pins 22 and 30 both connect ton to the Tach in Pin 24 on the MS3 board, and then KA pins 31 and 40 are going to the MS3x Cam in pin 32. On the MS3 it is not labeled the same I guess as on the DIYPNP, which threw me off for a while trying to make sure I knew which things were which as I didn't know the naming conversion, but Matt said it was correct.

So would I then remove KA pin 22 (which is the one MS3 pin 24 is going to, attach a 12v "pull up resister" to MS3 wire 24, then reattach that to the board for KA pin 22 (which is then jumped to 30) and then do the same for MS3x Cam input pin 24 with a 5v "pull up resister"?

Thanks again!
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

oh man... editing my post now to get you links to the actual page.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Not sure if it matters, but when my MS3/x was built, it was built for a 2nd gen Miata, and the person who made it and Matt said it "should" work without modifications to the MS3 build itself, but no one seemed sure.
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

MostHated wrote:Trust me, I appreciate the **** out of you helping like this.
No problem my man!
MostHated wrote:I just got reconfirmation from Matt and DIY that it would not matter or be an issue to put 116 on pin 2, his words were "Main board ground pins may be used for shield ground or signal ground; the board does not distinguish between the two. MS3X grounds, however, are always power grounds."
I definitely defer to Matt for anything he says that's different than what I'm saying. The only thing I'll say is that there may be no benefit to putting pin 116 to pin 2 (since 116 is not the shield for the stock crank angle sensor harness), but if he's saying it won't hurt, then I'd definitely leave it if it's there.
MostHated wrote:I am trying to visualize how to do the relay as you are saying. Would something like this be a good idea? How many amps should it be? 4 pin I am guessing?

http://www.amazon.com/Fastronix-Waterpr ... tive+panel

Or these which are cheaper. http://www.amazon.com/Support-Relay-Spd ... 1292772011


I do have a copy of the FSM and have been going crosseyed staring at it the last week or so, doing similar to yours for finding grounds and what not, lol. http://i.imgur.com/gfEUvaB.jpg

So would it be like this? A new wire from pin 36 from the BOB would come out of the box instead of in to it, connect to that relay, a ground wire would then connect to the car from the relay, and then the "connect to component" pin would go back in to the box and connect to pin 4 on the BOB? What would go to the 12v in, anything? Then that could be all it needs?
Image
I think I'm following, but just to be sure I'm recommending leaving the stock engine harness pins 36 and 4 alone. On the DIYBOB side (in between the DIYBOB and the MS3), I would take the DIYBOB wire for pin 36 and run it to pin 85. On pin 86, you would wire in chassis ground. On pin 30, wire to chassis ground (could be same wire as on pin 86, not to 12v as you show in your pic). One pin 87, connect a wire to pin 4 of the DIYBOB harness.
What this is going to do is when pin 36 receives +12v from the ignition switch, it will activate the relay, and allow pin 4 to go to ground.
As far as relays go, you can get them at radioshack or similar and don't have to be anything too fancy. It will not be taking a lot of current (in fact, only enough current to activate the relay coil of the EFI relay)
MostHated wrote:Tach signal is going from KA pins 22 and 30 both connect ton to the Tach in Pin 24 on the MS3 board, and then KA pins 31 and 40 are going to the MS3x Cam in pin 32. On the MS3 it is not labeled the same I guess as on the DIYPNP, which threw me off for a while trying to make sure I knew which things were which as I didn't know the naming conversion, but Matt said it was correct.

So would I then remove KA pin 22 (which is the one MS3 pin 24 is going to, attach a 12v "pull up resister" to MS3 wire 24, then reattach that to the board for KA pin 22 (which is then jumped to 30) and then do the same for MS3x Cam input pin 24 with a 5v "pull up resister"?

Thanks again!
The input to the MS3 box is correct based on what I saw in your spreadsheet, but what I'm talking about are the jumper selections that must be made on the mainboard of the MS3 in order to allow those connections internally within the MS3 box. The I fixed above shows the jumpers (you're connected tach to either vr in or Opto in, and that is selecting which tach filtering circuit is to be used). If you do not make any further connections inside the ms3 box, then your tach signal will not be fed to the processor. Also, the pull up resistors I mention can be soldered inside the MS3 using the available 12v and 5v pads (you just add a length of wire and an appropriate resistor between the tach input on the board and the voltage source, see the picture linked)
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

Just saw your post in between mine. In that case, please take some pictures of your mainboard and see if there are any jumper wires leading anywhere... maybe we can see if the miata guys need the same pull ups.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

I do not mean changing anything on the car harness.

Keep in mind the main text (connect to electronics component, connect to remote turn on lead, connect to ground, and connect to 12v were already there in the diagram and I only added the pin 36, pin 4, and ground to chassis text)

Is this what you are saying to do?

Image

Pin 36 goes to the ground of the relay, the 12v part of the relay goes to ground, the remote turn on also goes to ground, and then the output of the relay goes to pin 4?

That throws me off so much, but only because I just do not know electronics well enough. Power from pin 36 is supposed to go to the relays ground, and then the relays power is supposed to go to ground?

This was the diagram I found and based my original off of, (not knowing if it was right) Image

I ordered this though to hopefully handle the job. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B007XL ... ge_o00_s00

I did not make the MS3 / Ms3x box, as I mentioned it was put together by a person who makes them for Miatas (it came with the whole harness already assembled and connected to an ECU plug for a Miata, I just cut the wires off and then rewired them to my BOB as I bought the whole thing from craigslist for an extremellllyy good price. Got all of it for $550 fully assembled with harness and all. After extensive research I did find the guy who build the whole Ms3 and ms3x board from scratch, is there specific questions I can send to him about how he built / configured it to try and clarify some of this?), and I wish I knew more about what you were talking about (I can build entire network and server infrastructures from the ground up, I know 4 programming languages, I make video games, I design 3d models for games and 3d printing, but I can't figure out some simple wiring for this ECU, it is very frustrating.), I am trying to learn as much as I can. Should I take my MS3 box apart and take pics of each side of it, would that help answer any questions?

Here are a few in case they help.

http://imgur.com/a/3Kwuz
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

That is a great deal! Yes, if you take hi res pictures of both sides of the ms3 withoit the covers on, we should see what's going on.

For the relay, try not to think of it as providing "power"; what the relay is doing is providing a connection to whatever is on the other side of the switch. In this case, you need to provide ground when the relay goes active.
Another thing: relays activate when there is a voltage potential across pins 85&86 and ability to pass current. If you trace the efi relay, you'll see that 12v is provided to two pins, so in order to activate that relay, the other side needs to go to ground (this is what's known as ground switched).

From the pictures you linked, I can see that primary tach signal is going through the vr circuit (tach select is jumpered to be in, tsel to be out). I'm still having trouble seeing any pull up resistors, but I'm on my phone and I don't have any direct experience with the v3.0 boards and anything not microsquirt. I'll see if I can see anything else when I'm on a bigger screen
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

There looks to be a jumper wire (with resistor covered in hear shrink) on the ms3x card... What are those connections? If it's the cam input pin then you may already have a pull up for your can signal
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

It looks like this wire

Image

Is going to here.

Image

Here are more pics (tried to add more to that album)

http://imgur.com/a/3Kwuz
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

So that jumper wire on the ms3x card is not what I was thinking it was (not for your cam input). Which number pin is that connected to on your ms3x connector - 30 or 27?

Good news is that the ms3x card has a built in jumper for cam input, described on this page of the manual: http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... .4-82.html
So with JP7 set to jumper (and not off), then you have a pull up for cam signal.

I'm still unsure if/where your pull up for the crank signal is. See this page in the manual for info: http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... .4-74.html

There are a couple of choices made in this build that I'm not too sure of, like why R13 and R45 are soldered together.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Just noticed these as well, if they make a difference, took a close up. **Edit (though now that I just read back to your previous post, it seems you already noticed that, lol)

http://i.imgur.com/o0M6mP8.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/cz0IPed.jpg

Though, as I hoped I mentioned, this was originally made for a 2nd Gen Miata, so perhaps some of the choices were because of that? Unfortunately that makes me wonder if anything needs to be done to the MS3 / 3x to make it work for a KAE.

I will try to see what pin that goes to. ** Edit - Looks like that actually goes to pin 27 for VVT : /

If there are any other close up pics I should take, please do let me know.

I do see the JP7 pin having a jumper on it, so awesome, lol.

Just found this from a Miata post - https://picasaweb.google.com/1173760794 ... 8228985234
"Notice the extra resistor from R13 to R45. This is the pullup for the cam VR circuit."
But its on the MS3 main board, so doesn't that mean it is for the Crank input? So being that there is a Jumper on JP7 on the MS3x for Cam in, and the resistor on R13 and R45 on the main board, does that mean I have both my pullups already installed?

Doesnt a 240sx use an optical sensor though, is it going to be a problem that things seem to be set to VR? Though I did see somewhere that the MS3 "prefers to use VR inputs" I just can't seem to find where I saw that. I am honestly not sure of the difference, or if that means I need to change anything out either on the MS3 or the car?

Is the way my spreadsheet wiring setup for the crank inputs work with the way the board seems to be setup? Do I still need to buy the KA24E DIY optical trigger wheel? Do I still put it on the distributor, does something need to go on the crank sensor now somehow?
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

Interesting! that R13 connection to R45 does in fact provide a 5v 4.7k pull up resistor for the VR input. Looks like you're all set on tach input jumpers and pull up resistors. Very elegant solution actually.
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... 4-190.html

Ok on pin 27 being for VVT... shouldn't be a problem and you just won't connect anything to that.

VR circuit is now the recommended way to take a variety of crank sensor inputs, including optical (the manual confirms that). I thought I remember reading that MS3 had the ability to read the high res nissan disk, but I don't know for sure off hand. You can put the DIY optical disk in the distributor, and no need for a crank trigger even though you are using the VR circuitry.

edit: http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... e-1.4.html that section starts describing the hi res Nissan optical disk for use on sr20's and rb25's. I'm not sure if the disk is the same for ka's or other nissans. Further, this page shows that the input to the megasquirt for using the hi res disk is different than what you've been doing so far:
http://www.msextra.com/doc/pdf/html/MS3 ... 4-170.html

Without knowing if the hi res disk works on ka's, and knowing that you're already set up for the 12-1 DIY disk per the wiring we've discussed here, I would say go with the 12-1 disk that DIY sells and be done with it.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Awesome to hear. So in your opinion, all I need to really do is wire pins 36 and 4 from the KA board to a relay, get the 12-1 disk and that should be it?? I think I need to also get an Intake Air relocation kit from DIY as well? (My relay will be arriving tomorrow, ordered from Amazon, though it will probably be a few weeks before I get the car running as I have to finish pulling the head and taking it to a shop to get checked out. Apparently the person who put it together didn't tighten down the set screw / lock nuts for the valves well and during the first few minutes of it running they came loose and the car stopped running and they didn't know why, so I am hoping the valves did not get bent. When I took the valve cover off, this is what I found... http://i.imgur.com/dYlfcGk.jpg which is why I want to just take the thing to a shop to have them confirm everything is ok)

I currently do not have pin 27 connected to anything, I think (according to all the extra pins I have connected on the MA3x harness, such as injectors E-H) that I should not need much else anyways. The only things I plan to use / try to figure out how to use (lol), are the boost control (apparently I already have an AEM 30-2400 that I didn't even know about, it was not listed in the mod list of my car when I bought it, I found it when I started taking things off the car to check the head / clean) http://i.imgur.com/8VBUzKZ.jpg. I am hoping it is compatible with the MS3x.

I also plan to learn how to setup table switching to work along with the boost controller. I have a Devils own water / meth injection kit I plan to try and incorporate (use nitrous out for that?) I will also be getting the IGN-A1 coil packs eventually as well, but will cross all these bridges when I get to them, lol.

Other than that, (and the things we discussed, such as wiring the o2 directly to the Ms3) I don't think there is really much else I need? Though the car currently does have the stock fan and I plan to go efans. would It be a good idea to just get the fans with an external thermometer kit, or can I use one of my extra MS3x pins for that?

Thank you so much for helping me. I can not wait to get her running.
Heres my mod list : http://hastebin.com/iviporofiz.vhdl

This is how she looked when built a few years ago:
Image

Here is how she currently looks, a bit dirty and needs some love :
Image

I hope to get her to all her former glory. I was told the build has only about 10k miles on it, so I just want to pull the head off and take it in to get looked at, as after the custom cam was installed there were some issues. My goal is 450 -500hp, though I might need to throw in some rods before I can reach that goal.

With your major help though (as well as Matt from DIY), I might be able to have her running sooner than I thought. Thank you so much man!
User avatar
beercandrifter
Belongs To The TOP CONTRIBUTING MEMBERS!
Posts: 2271
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 7:57 am
Location: Melbourne, FL

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by beercandrifter »

fwiw, its extremely simple to configure ms3x to handle fans (and you have more accurate control vs using the thermoswitches). you can configure them to come on using data from multiple other sensor units (i.e. rpm/mph/clt/etc). if you pull up the fan menu in tunerstudio, you can see the outputs you can wire your fan relay(s) to. its just one wire for each relay
91 240sx Hatch: HomeBrwd
25psi hx35/8.8:1/264^2 cams/95lb injectors/Megasquirt 2/ka24de build **RIP**
T56/4.8 LSx/LS9 Cam/60lb injectors/comp 918 springs/Megasquirt 3/all custom wiring
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

beercandrifter wrote:fwiw, its extremely simple to configure ms3x to handle fans (and you have more accurate control vs using the thermoswitches). you can configure them to come on using data from multiple other sensor units (i.e. rpm/mph/clt/etc). if you pull up the fan menu in tunerstudio, you can see the outputs you can wire your fan relay(s) to. its just one wire for each relay
Ok nice, appreciate the info, I will have to bust out the JimStim and take a better look around things and see what all is available.
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

Yeah, I think you're good to go now with the extra relay and getting the 12-1 disk (fwiw, you can run on the stock disk in basic trigger mode, and I did for at least a year, but I would recommend getting the disk now and not having to do it later. Gives you much more crank speed/position resolution and the ability to run sequential)! The GM IAT sensor kit is definitely something to get (our stock one doesn't have a great, leak free way of sealing to cold piping).

My recommendation is to run one table for now, and only if you realize you need more resolution, then use table switching. At the moment, I'm getting by more than fine on the stock 16x16 VE and 12x12 timing/afr tables. Keep in mind, the tables interpolate so unless your specific engine has a significant difference between two load/rpm points, then generally (at least in high load areas), you don't need as much resolution as you may think.

agree with beercan that you should use your ms3 box for anything you can (including fans). No sense in buying more hardware to do something that can be easily done by your ems!
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

I was under the impression that if you wanted to say, run 25lbs for a run with my water / meth injection, but then wanted to back down a bit using the boost controller to 15lbs or so for just cruising around and what not, you would have to swap tables, is that not the case?

I plan to get the trigger, as I set this up for sequential already, lol, I will have to reconfigure somethings as well depending on if I decide to get the IGN-1A coils before I get the car actually up and running, probably not much though considering I have spark B, C, D connected to the MS3x, just not used currently.

Good to know about the fans though and what not. The car looks like it had e'fans at some point, but they seem to be missing and she just has a clutch fan, but I will pick up some fans one day soon. Still need to get my manifold situation taken care of on the Titan, damn p0420 and p0430 codes. : /
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Shoot, I accidentally got a 5 wire relay, is that going to be an issue instead of the 4 wire? I was about to wire up the last of it for pin 36 and 4.

Image
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

that won't be a problem - the 87a terminal means that terminal 30 is connected when the relay is not activated, where 87 waits until the relay is active before receiving terminal 30's source
http://www.rattlebars.com/avalanche/relay_basics.html

For your question on table switching - it is necessary when you want to run 25 psi without meth injection and also run 25 psi with meth injection. In that case, the fueling needs between no meth and meth are different, so the meth active switch would tell the ms3 box to go to the other table and vice versa.

If on the other hand you want to run no meth at 15 psi, and always meth at 25 psi, then your main table will always been tuned for meth injection at that manifold pressure and you don't need to switch.

OR
your particular circumstance requires more fuel/spark resolution that the 16x16 or 12x12 tables. In that case, you need to do whatever the engine needs.

I assume you won't immediately plug in the meth injection, so you'll be able to tune on one table and see if that's enough for just pump gas and no additive fueling. At that point, you'll be able to see if you need higher resolution than what's provided in the stock tables.

Good thing is, whatever you do on a one table tune, can be translated to a table switch tune, so you're not wasting effort.
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Fantastic link, thank you. I will be reading through it shortly.

I see what you are saying though, chances are that I would only use the injection at the much higher boost, and the lower boost would not, so if that requires no switching, then that is fine by me. I thought that really any time you changed your boost level you would have to retune otherwise you would be running way too rich or lean depending on the adjustment? (but of course I have never tuned anything, so I know very little, if anything, lol) Luckily for me Martin from Enthalpy will be doing my tuning for me.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

I think I am just not getting how this relay works at all based on how it is explained in the link you sent vs what you said.

In my pic which you said is correct below, power is coming from pin 36 on the KA board going in to relay pin 85, but on the 2nd pic of theirs, it is going out to ground. Both 86 and 30 in my pic are going out to ground, where on their pic they are power inputs. The explanation of their pic makes perfect sense, a low input signal basically triggers a bridge for higher power to kick on and then output to something else that requires a higher voltage. My fans were wired as such in my s14. There was a low voltage switch that was on one pin, which when turned on caused a circuit to ground, which opened the bridge from a power input from the battery, to a power output to the fans, yet my pic doesn't seem to make sense.

If relay pin 30 is supposed to be the input of main power, but is a ground, where is pin 87 getting its power from to go out to KA pin 4?

Is it that because 86 is grounded, when 85 gets power it creates the bridge, just in the opposite way the diagram is worded instead of power coming from 86, its coming from 85, either way it triggers the bridge? If that's the case, should not the power going over the bridge come from 30 and then go to 87? I am not seeing the physical connection of how power is getting from KA pin 36, through relay pin 85 to relay pin 87 in order to feed power to KA board pin 4.

It seems like the way it should work is when relay pin 86 (low power in) sends a current to relay pin 85 (ground), the bridge connects, so then power input from relay pin 30 (higher power in) then crosses the bridge to relay pin 87 (high powerout) and goes out to whatever you are trying to power.

My pic looks like when low power comes in from KA pin 36 to relay 85, it connects to 86 (ground), which then creates a bridge from 30 to 87, which since 30 is ground, it would supply no power to 87, which goes out to KA pin 4.

Image

Image
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

You're not trying to feed power to pin 4 by way of pin 36 - you are using pin 36 to activate a relay (which happens when current passes through the relay coil on terminals 85, 86) to provide SIGNAL from pin 30 to pin 87. In many cases, when a relay is used, you are correct in that the end goal is to provide power to the thing being controlled by the relay, which is why you are finding many examples where pin 30 has 12v applied to it.

In this case, because the pin 85, 86 equivalent in the EFI relay already has 12v power applied to it, we need the other side to go to ground in order for the EFI relay to activate. This is what is meant by ground switched - power is already applied to the relay coil, but ground is not, so no current passes and the relay doesn't activate until ground is applied. Looking at the wiring schematic for the EFI relay, if you apply 12v to it, it will surely never activate since there is no voltage potential on the relay coil and therefore no current can pass (12v on both sides)

Pin 85, 86 are interchangeable, so you can swap those two if you'd like to abide by the standard (not a bad idea)

On the subject of boost levels and retune - there should be no need if the highest boost you plan to run has been tuned for and the VE/ign tables account for it, and boost was tuned incrementally in between. In a speed density system, your lookup for VE/ignition timing is manifold pressure, so it's pretty easy to setup a table for multiple boost targets. Sometimes you don't even need to have an exact row in that table for your intended pressure, if the two load points around it (lower pressure and higher pressure) are tuned - many ecu's (including your stock ecu and definitely the MS series) interpolate between 4 cells to figure out the final fueling
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Oh man, I feel dumb as a box of rocks, makes perfect sense now. I was just not seeing the flow of current the proper direction, so pin 4 already *has* power, you are using pin 36 to trigger the relay to then make pin 4 ground out to complete its own circuit which is separate.

Thank you, yet again, lol.

As for boost, I am starting to see what you are saying better as well. As as long as the max I plan to run and the actual scenarios in which they will be run are the same (25 psi will always be meth injected at the predefined trigger points, and 15psi will never have injection at any point) then the tune is good as long as you take both in to consideration while doing it?

I have an AEM Tru-Boost controller, but it definitely seems as if using the MS3x to control boost is a way better option, especially for these different scenarios. Can the 2 different boost levels be switch triggered and then the boost controller would then just handle it as long as the tune is set for it? I believe boost levels with an automatic controller can also be gear specific can't they? Example is. I have my high boost and low boost modes. Switch in high boost mode could mean that max PSI in first is 10lbs, 2nd is 15lbs, 3rd is 25, but after 6500 rpm (or whatever ends up being best) meth injection kicks on, and then is the same for the rest of the gears, but then I switch to low boost mode, 1st is 10psi max, 2nd is 15, 3rd is 15, etc with no injection. As long as that is always the case, then as long as its tuned for that and is always that way, then there is no need to swap tables?
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Here she is, in all her glory thanks to you and Matt. : D Relay is ready and all. (I even ***** up my back building her. : / been going to a chiropractor all week as I still have no feeling in my lower right leg and cant feel my toes from soldering at a weird angle for 2 hours straight last Saturday night. Apparently I have a bulging disk that was aggravated from sitting the way I was and is now pinching off a nerve... ugh..)

Image
User avatar
BigLoukaT
Dont Question My Nissan Knowledge
Posts: 879
Joined: Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:03 am
Location: MA

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by BigLoukaT »

Bro that looks extremely clean! Nice work. When's the first start up planned?

Ouch, didn't read about the back issues. Looks like me, you and adamky are in the same boat. **** sucks for sure
1990 S13
Boosted single slammer
MS DIYPNP
npx from 240sxforums wrote:i figure from my very limited knowledge about the 240 and under the hood about cars in general i would follow the sr20det trend.
MostHated
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 45
Joined: Mon Dec 07, 2009 12:00 pm

Re: Can anyone familiar with KA24E and MS3/MS3x look this ov

Post by MostHated »

Thanks man, that is definitely what I am aiming for, lol. I want to do things as right as I can. : D

The only issue with the car now is the fact that when she was put back together (after getting the 286 cam installed and head getting magnafluxed) was whoever put it back together (the owner of the car was deployed and his friend did it), he half assed it as you can see below.

The owner started the car, it ran good for about a minute, then got ****, then stopped running, and would not start again and he could not figure out why and never tried again. .... This is why..

Image

The person did not tighten the valves down, so after a minute they stems that hold the valve to the arm came loose on these cyls. It *could* be as simple as they needed to be tightened and reattached (I found it like this when I took the valve cover off), but I am worried if the valves might have been bent. So that is why I want to take it off and take it to a shop to get looked at first. It has all new springs, valves, was converted to solid mechanical, etc, so I hope it is ok.

If a pro shop checks the head and says its ok, then I will put her back together (have a new cometic HG to go on that came with the car, but I might go felpro as I heard cometic raises engine temps) and then she should be ready to roll. When putting her back together I will be installing the Xcessive Manufacturing intake plenum, and I also have a full energy suspension kit to put on as well as ISIS rucas and various other things that were included with the car (trunk was full of goodies), but that can wait. I want to get the ING-1A individual coils as well, but not sure if I should wait to get those first before I tune or not (would I need to retune if I get new coils).

Luckily Martin from Enthalpy will be doing my tune as well, so I have no worries, I just have to get her running, lol.

As for the back issues, it ***** sucks. I have worked in IT for 13ish years, and have sat at a computer since pretty much 1997, so I am sure it is from that. I also used to be 310lbs, but worked my way down to 170 now, but its a bit too late, the back damage has been done, so seems like I just need to work through it. They showed me the x-rays, and well... damn... even the chiropractor was like "I bet that hurts". >_<
Post Reply