MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Discussion about ECU Tuning Products and Theories
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supakat
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MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

I have been asked quite a few times about MS tuning. I wanted to start a thread to help out individuals, get the info out there, and get input from others. Once in the open, we can help teach each other. I am by no means an expert but I have had good results with tuning. I have helped get a few MS equipped cars running besides my own and AEM as well. Please bear with me. I am not going to create a guide because DIY has one already, but I would like everyone to ask questions and add content to the thread rather than emails or pm's.

I have attached my tune for instructional purposes.

Useful Links
http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/mspnp ... &isModel=2
http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/docs/mspnp ... ?isModel=1
http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... uning.html
http://www.megasquirtpnp.com/mspnp2_maps.php

To start off some excerpts copied from emails. I will try cleaning up when I get some time.

Boost Controller Setup
If you look at my settings in TS, you will see boost enabled. Basically, duty cycle 0 is no control meaning spring pressure. As numbers increase, so does boost. Some people do it backwards but I do not like it. I want to keep the relation of increase cycle = increasing psi. It makes more sense to me.

Timing Tip
Be careful when tuning. Have a safe timing map and extra fuel. If tuning on 93, make sure boost is at 10.5 afr until you get it pretty solid. Then start fine tuning to 11.0. Always start richer than lean. If tuning and you see 11.5 or higher back off and richen up from that cell to redline. The key thing with tuning is good base map, safe timing, and research. If on E85, you can use a 1:.5 deduction of timing for boost. For 18 psi, retard timing 18*.5 = 9* - 25*(WOT NA timing) = 17.5. Do this for each psi and update boost map. 100 kPa should be 25 and start reducing from there. If running 93, then use a 1:.75 reduction.

Another useful timing tip is increasing timing after MBT. After peak tq, start adding timing until redline. I ended up advancing timing from 5K to 7K by 3 degree's. The car pulls harder in the upper rpm range. You might ask why increase timing. Matt Cramer from DIY gave me some good info about this. Basically, volumetric efficiency is at its peak when tq peaks out. But as the rpm's increase, ve dies down which reduces cylinder pressures. In order to bump up cylinder pressure i.e. put more force to spin the crank, you will need to advance the timing.

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=62131

TS Tip and Tricks
Highlight whole x row close to 226 kPa and hit the equals button and type 17.5. Now highlight the 3000 rpm from 100 kPa to 226kPa and press the interpolate button. Make sure 100kPa @ 3K = 25*. This will input timing in the y axis and should use the .5 reduction. You can verify by doing the math.

To convert kPa to boost, -100 kPa and divide by 7. So 226 kPa = 226 - 100 = 126/7 = 18.5 psi. Vice versa to convert boost to kPa.

Table Switching
Basically, my tune goes like this: map 1 controls all vacuum,cruise,idle loads. MS switches to Map3 once 115kpa is met and is only for boost.
You can use this to run a dual tune. 93 and e85. I will never switch to 93 so I set it up this way.

I also use 2 maps is to get good resolution for fuel and spark. If your max is 204kPa(14.8 psi) on the y axis, anything above 15 psi is gonna have the same fuel/spark values. Now, if your car is tuned for 18psi, but you want to go higher, you will need to retune. If you go back down to 18psi, you will need a retune. But it you scale it larger and tune for each psi, you can switch to 14 psi, 18 psi, and 30 psi without having to retune since the values were tuned for that certain load.

Could I put e85 in and run your tune?
No. You will need to make sure you have sufficient injectors, fuel pump, and fuel pressure.
When switching to e85, you need to have 30% bigger fuel injectors than what 93 can support horsepower wise. So, if you want to make 300whp, 550cc can do this with 93. But with e85, it is like running 385cc which is like running Stock SR Turbo injectors which are only good for 200whp (HP Calculator). To get the fuel you want, 550cc x 1.3 = 715cc. So 740cc injectors will be needed to make 300whp safely with 85% duty cycle. When going bigger injectors, base fuel pressure should be bumped up. This also helps keep the duty cycle down. I run 50 psi base with a 1:1 rising rate fuel pressure regulator. So 50 psi WOT, but at 20psi, I should have 70 psi in my fuel rail.

Have you ever used the VE Analyze live feature with TS?
Yes! I used this religiously. Awesome feature. Basically, get a good base tune setup. Setup your AFR targets and other parameters. Once your good, enable and drive hitting different load points in each gear. When doing this for boost, do 4th gear pulls only. If you do anything lower, it will run through the rpm band and lean up. This is because the motor has different loads and is not in the cell as long. So if you tune in 3rd with 11.5 afr, you may see slightly leaner afr's in 4th since the motor stays in this rpm band longer. Granted it may not be that crucial but I like to err on the safe side.

I see you have your REQ fuel to 3.5 and injector size to 0 . My REQ fuel is 5.0 and injectors set to 800cc.
This may be due to the project settings. Bascially, TS asks for these constants and generates a req fuel for you. It takes the guessing game out of what it needs to be. It is like the K value on chipped ecu's or Nistune.

How much boost are you normally running and what's your setup?
I am currently around 25psi. Give or take depending on ambient conditions. Setup can be found here. http://www.ka-t.org • View topic - Supakat's Thread

I'm still trying to get a grasp on the whole .5* timing per psi of boost . if my base timing is 15*btdc and I'm running 18 psi that 9* of timing that would have to be 24* or 6* ? Lol I'm lost here.
Basically, when you increase boost, you will need to retard timing so you don't go ka-poo-ey. When setting base timing, this is not actual timing your are setting, You are syncing the ecu with physical motor. This is so when you tell the ecu to have 20* at idle on the spark map, it will be 20* physical timing. If your base if off, it could be catastrophic or detrimental to performance.

For instance, if you set base timing to 20* on pulley with light and ecu is showing 15*, you will always be 5* advanced physically. At 18psi, you tell the ecu to spark at 15*, it will actually be sparking at 20* physical timing and bust ring lands probably. Now, if light shows 10* and ecu shows 20*, your 10* retarded physically. High egt's, poor performance, melting pistons can happen.

The reason why spark is so crucial is because this is what makes or breaks a car performance wise and reliability wise. If you have 17* of timing for boost from 1 psi to 18 psi, the car will feel dead until 18 psi hits. But if you retard timing as boost increases, you keep the MBT (maximum brake torque) through out the power band. This is why dyno maps are good because they show you how the motor is working and getting optimal results.

Rewire your fuel pump
I was having an issues with getting fuel to the motor at higher psi loads. I thought I rewired my fuel pump but didn't. When testing out my pump, I turned on the fp in test most with TS and voltage dropped from 11.8v to 9.9 for a split seconds then steady to 10.8v. After the rewire, same test again and volts went from 11.8v to 11.7v. These volts came from the TS so this is what the ecu was seeing. My whole tune had to be redone. Possible reasons why this happened is because of DWELL and IDC correction. Make sure you rewire your fuel pump to ensure proper fuel pressure at higher loads when the motor needs it most.
http://youtu.be/crGPts2fLn4
Attachments
SupaKAT_Tune_Adv_Timing_Higher_RPM_40psi.msq
Same map as the previous two but added more resolution in fuel and timing to 40psi.
(110.53 KiB) Downloaded 324 times
SupaKAT_Tune_Adv_Timing_Higher_RPM.msq
Same map as before but added timing in boost as rpm increases.
(110.69 KiB) Downloaded 342 times
SupaKAT_Tune.msq
Tune for instruction purposes. Can be used as a base map if you like. Just take away 5* if 93 pump.
(110.53 KiB) Downloaded 383 times
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

I'm liking this thread, I'm in the process of dialing in a tune on my mspnp 2 and have basically followed the same routine as you. Just dealing with starting issues related to dropping voltage
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

In regards to starting issues, is the starter dying out? Have you updated your firmware to the latest build? I had 3.2.1 and I had issues starting up. Updated to 3.3.2 and it was resolved.

Quick tip with the MSPNP when starting, on my car, the CEL will turn on when you turn the key on. Once you start cranking and the ecu syncs, the cell will turn off and get spark immediately. Keep this in mind. If you crank and the light turns off but do not get it to tumble like it wants to turn on, then the engine is probably flooded. Floor the gas to stop the ecu from dumping fuel and it will start up hopefully.

Also, I rewired my fuel pump and it resolved quite a few issues but mainly the ecu seeing correct voltage.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by beercandrifter »

If you are tuning your engine N/A before tossing the turbo on, your AFR's change a bit from a boosted setup. i.e. the sweet spot for N/A is roughly 13 AFR for peak power, going up to ~15/15.5 for peak fuel efficiency

The graphs on msextra have a great description of the AFR ranges and how to work on tuning:
http://www.megamanual.com/begintuning.htm

and VE Analyze Live is simply awesome. Just hook your wideband up to your megasquirt unit, set your AFR tables and go.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

supakat wrote:In regards to starting issues, is the starter dying out? Have you updated your firmware to the latest build? I had 3.2.1 and I had issues starting up. Updated to 3.3.2 and it was resolved.

Quick tip with the MSPNP when starting, on my car, the CEL will turn on when you turn the key on. Once you start cranking and the ecu syncs, the cell will turn off and get spark immediately. Keep this in mind. If you crank and the light turns off but do not get it to tumble like it wants to turn on, then the engine is probably flooded. Floor the gas to stop the ecu from dumping fuel and it will start up hopefully.

Also, I rewired my fuel pump and it resolved quite a few issues but mainly the ecu seeing correct voltage.
That's some good insight. I did some further investigating, and during cranking my volatage drops to around 9.2-9.5 under cranking. I've used 2 new starters and makes no difference. I hooked jumper cables up to my truck and tried again voltage still was dropping to about 10.2 for. 13.7 with my trucks volatage. You mention rewiring the fuel pump for proper volatage? My cel doesn't light up, but I follow the sync light on the megasquirt. It won't sync at all for extended periods and than all of the sudden catch and start. I'm running 3.2.5 and it's having this issue, my buddy has a similar setup but with 3.3.1 and has absolutely no issues at all. I will upgrade tomorrow. I also have a new wiring harness I'm tempted to throw in, but that's a lot of work.

Edit: see you added in the fuel pump wiring in your original post, thanks
Last edited by Kill3rwill on Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

Also I am running an engine bay mounted miata battery, which I know is rather small, but the voltage drop with jumper cables suggests another issue
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

I will see about taking a log to see voltage at startup. I have an Oddysey battery in the back connected with a 0ga feed.

Once you update the fw, it will sync almost immediately and spark. It will probably eliminate your voltage drop issue since it will not last longer than 3-5 seconds tops. Report back with your results.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

Good news! Flashed 3.3.3 and it fires right up after 2 crank revolutions every time. For some reason the crank trigger angle got altered and I have to reset my base timing, but besides that, my problem is solved.voltagw still drops though, but has no effect now. I did stick a volt meter on my battery while running and it was steady between 13.4 and 13.6, while tunerstudio showed a steady 12.4.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

Next order of business, COP setup. That's my next goal, but I read that the tach stopped working? I don't see how, your disconnecting the stock coil, but mspnp still reads rpm in the same place.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

Kill3rwill wrote:Good news! Flashed 3.3.3 and it fires right up after 2 crank revolutions every time. For some reason the crank trigger angle got altered and I have to reset my base timing, but besides that, my problem is solved.voltagw still drops though, but has no effect now. I did stick a volt meter on my battery while running and it was steady between 13.4 and 13.6, while tunerstudio showed a steady 12.4.
Awesome! But I suspect the fuel pump is robbing power from MS. Once I rewired, TS saw the correct voltage and as stated before, no dwell or deadtime correction to mess with you.
Kill3rwill wrote:Next order of business, COP setup. That's my next goal, but I read that the tach stopped working? I don't see how, your disconnecting the stock coil, but mspnp still reads rpm in the same place.
There is no tach issue with using the DIY trigger wheel. The tach signal comes from the ecu, not dizzy. If you are referring to my tachn not working, it was due to 12v belng applied to the tach out pin and fried something. I then switch the tach output to a spare port and got it working again.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

OK that's good then, stuck between the truck ls coils with the heat sink, or following the write up on here and going maxima, they make for a super clean install. In reference to your timing tip, half degree per psi seems a little on the dangerous side. I've always read .75 to 1 degree for safety. I know your running e85 in which case it's probably fine. I'm guessing the map you loaded is for an e85 tune as well? Last though on my mind is the knock sensor. Were you able to get the megasquirt to work with our Stock sensor in any way?
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

Maxima coils will require you to run low gaps like .015 as Rosado and AVP stated. I am around .020 and haven't got blow out with 30psi on a cold night with my D581 coils. D585 are the ones you want.

As for 93, .75 is correct. I need to clarify that. I like that you are actually researching and applying theory. Good job.

Yes, the tune is e85. I need to upload my current one which makes more sense. I haven't connected my knock. I have my knock lite that I use but need to wire this is and IACV.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

I'd like to figure out the knock sensor circuit built into our ecu's. I have the stock knock sensor plugged in still but everything is disabled. I know that the ecu can interpret knock and retard timing, but I have that disabled. I believe there are a few jumpers on the board that need fiddling but that's as far as my knowledge goes. Anyone care to figure out how to make it a usable system?
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by 91boostedb20 »

Right now I'm using 0.75 per psi timing retard from 25. I started at 1 per psi then slowly added. Seems to be working ok. I tuned my afr's to 11.5 but I might richen that up to around 11.0 here once the weather gets nice. I also just built det cans to fine tune the timing table.

I do have a question though. I'm using the stock external coil still and I get spark blowout at anything over 15psi. I already gapped my plugs down to I think 0.025" because I was originally getting it at like 10psi with stock gap. Im using a holset he351. My car made 315whp at 15psi. I was thinking of just throwing an msd coil or something similar on it and see if I can run more. I really don't want to close the gap anymore.

Great write up by the way. Megasquirt is a great tuning option if the time is taken to properly tune it, im glad I went with it.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

I'm currently running s14 internal coil, no blowout on stock gap at 18 psi. An old buddy and I swapped in an msd coil on his n/a s13, made a noticeable difference in response for the best. Only around 50$ for a blaster 2 and takes 10 minutes to wire up. Make sure all grounds and wires are up to snuff and that should help you out. What's your final ignition timing at 15 psi? At 18 psi I'm currently at 11.5 and it seems very safe.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by 91boostedb20 »

Im at 13 degrees at 15psi. I know there is alot of room to grow there. Im gonna work on tuning it with det cans this spring and hopefully hit the dyno again.The car doesnt really need anymore power, its in an ae86, so its super light. I have an accel coil I got at autozone laying around, I may throw it on to try it. I like the simplicity of a single coil, That's why I havent gone coil on plug.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

Same with me. My s14 dizzy has kept up so far with stock gap! We'll see how it does at 22 psi. The accel coil should be on the same level as the msd, direct competition. Make sure you have nice plug wires. I work at Napa and we actually sell performance ngk wires for the 240s,usually in Stock too.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by 91boostedb20 »

I actually think the plug wires I have are ngk ones. They are blue and look to be good quality, same with the coil wire also.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

Well I bumped it to 20 psi today. And I'm starting to get blowout... Time for COP!
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by 91boostedb20 »

Thats too much wiring for me. Haha. I really need to clean up my engine bay some. There is just so much stuff in such a small compartment.

On another note, are you tuning for 11 afr? Im wondering since mine is leaner that could be why it blows spark out above 15.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

I'm shooting for 11.5 all the way through. And it's close. The richer the mixture the harder it is for the spark to ignite. On the other hand you don't want to lean out the mixture just so you can get spark! Throw your accel coil on there and try to aim for mid to low 11's and gap some step or 2 colder ngk plugs down to .032 and you should be good to go for a few more psi. I've also seen people direct wire their coils to the battery for better voltage.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by 91boostedb20 »

My coil has its own dedicated fused wire from the battery, grounded through the ms2. Im definitely gonna richen it up some and experiment with the other coil.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

Wait what's your afr in boost...? Running 15 afr's under full load would could Def be misfiring on its own, I hope you mean 15 psi.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

91boostedb20 wrote:Thats too much wiring for me. Haha. I really need to clean up my engine bay some. There is just so much stuff in such a small compartment.

On another note, are you tuning for 11 afr? Im wondering since mine is leaner that could be why it blows spark out above 15.
What fuel you running? 11.0 for 93 is safe and 11.8 for e85 is safe. If blow out, gap the plugs smaller and make sure to be using BKR7E plugs.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

Kill3rwill wrote:Well I bumped it to 20 psi today. And I'm starting to get blowout... Time for COP!
I ran 20psi with .028 on MSD blaster coil on a chipped ecu. No blow out. You may also want to consider doing the ignition rewire to make sure the coil is getting 12v's straight from the battery.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by 91boostedb20 »

[/quote]What fuel you running? 11.0 for 93 is safe and 11.8 for e85 is safe. If blow out, gap the plugs smaller and make sure to be using BKR7E plugs.[/quote]


Im using 93 fuel with bkr7e ngk's gapped to 0.025'', I tuned it to 11.5 afr's at 15psi. Im going to richen it up to the 11-11.2 once the weather gets better here. I am using a cheap ass stock coil from rockauto, I think I paid like 25 bucks for it, maybe its not up to the task. Im gonna put that accel coil on and try it.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

Sounds good. You should be good to go.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

supakat wrote:
Kill3rwill wrote:Well I bumped it to 20 psi today. And I'm starting to get blowout... Time for COP!
I ran 20psi with .028 on MSD blaster coil on a chipped ecu. No blow out. You may also want to consider doing the ignition rewire to make sure the coil is getting 12v's straight from the battery.
I'm still running stock gap, .032 or 035 I believe. And stock wiring. I'm just going to switch to COP anyway, so I can run high boost once I get meth and the added benefit of fitting a large intake, as it sits now I can only fit a 3 inch tube without hitting the distributor cap.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by supakat »

Shoot, gap them down for the time being so you can feel the power and just switch to COP when you have everything lined up for the install.
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Re: MegaSquirt/Tuner Studio Tuning Theories/Concepts

Post by Kill3rwill »

This thing is feeling pretty solid at 19 psi. I'm weary of going too much higher on pump, already getting down to about 9 degres of timing. But I know that's safe. I'm bidding an an hx35/40 hybrid turbo with a 60mm wheel, which will be brutal. If I lose that, I'll either go t4 hx40 pro, or borg warner s362.

Edit: I am now the owner of an hx40 pro.
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