KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

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Johnny240
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by Johnny240 »

Engine Build:
Weisco 89mm 9:1 compression pistons (Rings gapped to: 0.0025)
Rod Bearings
Eagle Rods
Brian Crower 264 stage 2 cams
Stock Valve Springs
Siemens Deka IV 80lb 875CC Injectors
Ported Head
Intake that is the same style as the Xcessive one (I can't tell which one it is)
90mm unknown throttle body
ARP Head Studs
Cometic Head Gasket
01' Nissan Altima Coils
GM IAT
MS3x

I have a hybrid t04(*) compressor w/ precision hot-side turbo that will go on after I sort out the AFR issues.

* Unknown which variation

Issue:
I took a lot of time, and thanks to the help of people on this thread I finally got my car started. Of course, this isn't without issue.

My car has a tough time starting, I have to make sure the dizzy is slightly turned clockwise and I have to give it gas, while waiting for it to catch before it starts. It then "idles" somewhere between 1500-1800 RPM. The wideband reads its maximum of 17 AFR. The car produces a small amount of smoke out the the exhaust also, which is concerning to me. I was the first to start it after the engine had been build though.

The first time I started my car, I ran it for a couple minutes, checking the temp of coils of injectors while looking for leaks. I had a large coolant leak. This was long enough for my exhaust manifold to glow red on cyl 3 and it looked like the rest were starting to get there. After doing a smoke test with a cigar, the only visible leak was through the shaft seal in my throttle body.

I fixed the shaft seals for now and have not done another smoke test. I will do one, but first, I NEED to know how to input the data for my injectors into tuner studio correctly. It took an extensive amount of time to obtain this information and after much research, I still don't know how to read it.

I had to play around with my injector dead time to get it started, so that is why it is 1.650

I have not fixed the fuel table yet

Attached is my current tune and relevant images.
https://imgur.com/o8mLtei

https://imgur.com/aSs8gfP

https://imgur.com/kDT3TYz

https://imgur.com/GRUi763
2020-10-31_19.27.16_KA24DE.msq
(274.95 KiB) Downloaded 83 times
NukeKS14
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 pm
Location: Northeastern KS

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by NukeKS14 »

What is your base fuel pressure set to?

I assume you're referring to the VE table as the fuel table. That is EXACTLY what you need to be changing at idle, NOT deadtime. Get your deadtime and fueling requirements set based on parameters, then change your VE table in your idle cells to richen up your AFRs. You need to know what your base fuel pressure is to set your deadtime though, as most tables are based on 3 bar base fuel pressure so if you deviate from that, the value is going to change. This will also affect the value in your engine and sequential settings page.

This isn't a carbureted vehicle; The only thing putting your foot on the gas pedal is doing is 1) initiating flood clear mode by cutting off fuel if you're above the setpoint (80% by the value in your tune file) and 2) allowing more air into the intake manifold. You're not adding fuel. Fuel on startup is determined by your startup values in the tune.

You may need a bit more cranking pulse and priming pulse. I'd start by getting your dead time correct and engine/injector size. Move to your cranking priming tables and add a little there at a time until you can get it to catch and start, even if it dies. Then work on raising your VE table values for fueling until you get your desired AFRs and it idles smoothly. Don't pay as much attention to the AFR as giving the engine what it wants to idle right.

On your tune, other stuff I would recommend changing; On your General Settings under Basic/Load settings, I'd set incorporate AFR target to > Include AFR target so you can configure EGO control to help adjust trims for your AFR table.

You also have your ignition timing set to Fixed. Fixed is for when you want to adjust the crank angle to verify it's true'd up between commanded and actual. Put a timing light on there, change the value to something more reasonable like 18 or 20 degrees, get it started and verify that's what your ACTUAL timing is, shut the motor down, and change that value to 'Use Table' You're probably also having issues trying to idle it at 25 degrees if that's what your actual timing is. I idle closer to 15-18ish on this engine.

Speaking of ignition tables... is that the stock table or one you modified? How much boost are you trying to run on this engine?
Johnny240
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by Johnny240 »

NukeKS14 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:41 am What is your base fuel pressure set to?

I assume you're referring to the VE table as the fuel table. That is EXACTLY what you need to be changing at idle, NOT deadtime. Get your deadtime and fueling requirements set based on parameters, then change your VE table in your idle cells to richen up your AFRs. You need to know what your base fuel pressure is to set your deadtime though, as most tables are based on 3 bar base fuel pressure so if you deviate from that, the value is going to change. This will also affect the value in your engine and sequential settings page.

This isn't a carbureted vehicle; The only thing putting your foot on the gas pedal is doing is 1) initiating flood clear mode by cutting off fuel if you're above the setpoint (80% by the value in your tune file) and 2) allowing more air into the intake manifold. You're not adding fuel. Fuel on startup is determined by your startup values in the tune.

You may need a bit more cranking pulse and priming pulse. I'd start by getting your dead time correct and engine/injector size. Move to your cranking priming tables and add a little there at a time until you can get it to catch and start, even if it dies. Then work on raising your VE table values for fueling until you get your desired AFRs and it idles smoothly. Don't pay as much attention to the AFR as giving the engine what it wants to idle right.

On your tune, other stuff I would recommend changing; On your General Settings under Basic/Load settings, I'd set incorporate AFR target to > Include AFR target so you can configure EGO control to help adjust trims for your AFR table.

You also have your ignition timing set to Fixed. Fixed is for when you want to adjust the crank angle to verify it's true'd up between commanded and actual. Put a timing light on there, change the value to something more reasonable like 18 or 20 degrees, get it started and verify that's what your ACTUAL timing is, shut the motor down, and change that value to 'Use Table' You're probably also having issues trying to idle it at 25 degrees if that's what your actual timing is. I idle closer to 15-18ish on this engine.

Speaking of ignition tables... is that the stock table or one you modified? How much boost are you trying to run on this engine?
I am running 3 Bar fuel pressure. I cannot for the life of me figure out how to read the spec sheet for the injectors data in tuner studio; it is the first or second imgur link. I understand the information but I do not understand what tuner studio wants from that. Also, I had the timing set to fixed because I couldn't get it to start from the timing table. I incrementally advanced it until it started to finally detonate fuel. Also, I failed to mention but I did set the timing/crank angle with a timing light the first time I started the car.

As for the ignition table, I have not touched it. I do not even remember where the original values came from. Currently the car is NA because I was focused on getting it running and idling before putting it on.

I also should mention that I will not be running a MAF and plan for this build to be entirely speed density.
Johnny240
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by Johnny240 »

NukeKS14 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 10:41 am What is your base fuel pressure set to?

I assume you're referring to the VE table as the fuel table. That is EXACTLY what you need to be changing at idle, NOT deadtime. Get your deadtime and fueling requirements set based on parameters, then change your VE table in your idle cells to richen up your AFRs. You need to know what your base fuel pressure is to set your deadtime though, as most tables are based on 3 bar base fuel pressure so if you deviate from that, the value is going to change. This will also affect the value in your engine and sequential settings page.

This isn't a carbureted vehicle; The only thing putting your foot on the gas pedal is doing is 1) initiating flood clear mode by cutting off fuel if you're above the setpoint (80% by the value in your tune file) and 2) allowing more air into the intake manifold. You're not adding fuel. Fuel on startup is determined by your startup values in the tune.

You may need a bit more cranking pulse and priming pulse. I'd start by getting your dead time correct and engine/injector size. Move to your cranking priming tables and add a little there at a time until you can get it to catch and start, even if it dies. Then work on raising your VE table values for fueling until you get your desired AFRs and it idles smoothly. Don't pay as much attention to the AFR as giving the engine what it wants to idle right.

On your tune, other stuff I would recommend changing; On your General Settings under Basic/Load settings, I'd set incorporate AFR target to > Include AFR target so you can configure EGO control to help adjust trims for your AFR table.

You also have your ignition timing set to Fixed. Fixed is for when you want to adjust the crank angle to verify it's true'd up between commanded and actual. Put a timing light on there, change the value to something more reasonable like 18 or 20 degrees, get it started and verify that's what your ACTUAL timing is, shut the motor down, and change that value to 'Use Table' You're probably also having issues trying to idle it at 25 degrees if that's what your actual timing is. I idle closer to 15-18ish on this engine.

Speaking of ignition tables... is that the stock table or one you modified? How much boost are you trying to run on this engine?
I increased cranking pulse by 20% and added some priming pulse. Increased entire idle ve table by 15%. Included AFR target. Decreased fixed timing to 20°. It started right up but with quite a lot more smoke out of the exhaust. It ran at 2100 RPM still with maxed out AFR. EGO control is also now 20%.
NukeKS14
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 pm
Location: Northeastern KS

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by NukeKS14 »

If you've adjusted the position of the distributor AFTER verifying your timing with a timing light, it is no longer correct. Start back over and fix that first. I can't tell if you just changed it in tunerstudio or moved the distributor since you talked about that in your first post.

DO NOT MOVE THE PHYSICAL DISTRIBUTOR ONCE YOU'VE VERIFIED YOUR TRIGGER ANGLE AGAINST ACTUAL SPARK WITH THE TIMING LIGHT.

I cannot stress that enough. If you need to change your timing, you do that in the tune. You HAVE to train yourself to leave the mechanical distributor alone. Once you mess with that you're throwing another variable in that makes EVERYTHING the ECU needs to control timing for the engine out the window. (fuel, spark, etc...)

Fix your trigger angle first (if need be) then, when you're back to square one with that, change your cranking timing from 10 to 15-17ish. See what it wants. But whatever you do, change it in the tune and the tune alone. And set timing back to 'use table'. If it's not starting and you're changing the cranking timing, it may be a fuel issue. Whatever it is, it's something that needs to be fixed in the tune.

For your deadtime settings, see this thread; https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63503

I'd start by changing your A value on your Injector dead time/PWM back to 1.000. It's a ton closer than what you're using. If you need more fuel, ADD MORE FUEL. And by that, I mean in the VE table and in the startup settings, the cranking pulse. Make SMALL changes and observe their effects on the engine.

You will not be running a MAF. Are you CURRENTLY running a MAF? The MS3 comes with a built in MAP sensor. That's hooked up right? Your tables are scaled for kPa not load% from what I recall.

Did you calibrate your coolant temp sensor in the thermistor table calibration? I see your IAT is calibrated for GM (which you have) but you may also be having some issues if your CTS is not hooked up/calibrated correctly. I can't tell if it's just not showing for me for some reason or it's legitimately blank. What does your coolant temp show on the dashboard? Should be roughly ambient temperature when the car's been sitting overnight. If it's off you need to get that fixed too. If you're on the OEM coolant temp sensor, should look something like this;
Image

That will GREATLY affect your fueling trims as well.

*edit* You should not have to add that much to your cranking to get it going. Once it's started it's the VE table that controls fuel so you may need to increase those values to something closer to mid-upper 40s.

Can you show a pic of jumper settings on your board? I almost feel like you're only getting fuel from 2 of the 4 injectors. Have you pulled the rail and tested them with CANbus/Testmode?

Our tunes won't be the same, but my idle VE table values and most of the KA's I've seen are closer to 50-ish.

Are you having to hold your foot on the throttle to keep the engine going? If it's idling at 2100 RPM without your foot on the gas you have quite the vacuum leak going on or your IACV is wide open.

I'm also getting a multiplier of 4.8 for your required fueling (from 80 lb/hr injectors.)
Image

I'd raise your required fueling a little there as well. 4.8 or 4.9 should help. And change your value to end of squirt. You need to set up your injector timing table later on, but that's not an issue currently as Idle should be around 360 degrees end of squirt for the cams you're running.

Keep us posted. I'll likely not be around again for a day or two. Best of luck. As always, the manual is your friend;

https://www.ampefi.com/downloads/#documentation
Johnny240
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by Johnny240 »

NukeKS14 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:09 pm If you've adjusted the position of the distributor AFTER verifying your timing with a timing light, it is no longer correct. Start back over and fix that first. I can't tell if you just changed it in tunerstudio or moved the distributor since you talked about that in your first post.

DO NOT MOVE THE PHYSICAL DISTRIBUTOR ONCE YOU'VE VERIFIED YOUR TRIGGER ANGLE AGAINST ACTUAL SPARK WITH THE TIMING LIGHT.

I cannot stress that enough. If you need to change your timing, you do that in the tune. You HAVE to train yourself to leave the mechanical distributor alone. Once you mess with that you're throwing another variable in that makes EVERYTHING the ECU needs to control timing for the engine out the window. (fuel, spark, etc...)

Fix your trigger angle first (if need be) then, when you're back to square one with that, change your cranking timing from 10 to 15-17ish. See what it wants. But whatever you do, change it in the tune and the tune alone. And set timing back to 'use table'. If it's not starting and you're changing the cranking timing, it may be a fuel issue. Whatever it is, it's something that needs to be fixed in the tune.

For your deadtime settings, see this thread; https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63503

I'd start by changing your A value on your Injector dead time/PWM back to 1.000. It's a ton closer than what you're using. If you need more fuel, ADD MORE FUEL. And by that, I mean in the VE table and in the startup settings, the cranking pulse. Make SMALL changes and observe their effects on the engine.

You will not be running a MAF. Are you CURRENTLY running a MAF? The MS3 comes with a built in MAP sensor. That's hooked up right? Your tables are scaled for kPa not load% from what I recall.

Did you calibrate your coolant temp sensor in the thermistor table calibration? I see your IAT is calibrated for GM (which you have) but you may also be having some issues if your CTS is not hooked up/calibrated correctly. I can't tell if it's just not showing for me for some reason or it's legitimately blank. What does your coolant temp show on the dashboard? Should be roughly ambient temperature when the car's been sitting overnight. If it's off you need to get that fixed too. If you're on the OEM coolant temp sensor, should look something like this;
Image

That will GREATLY affect your fueling trims as well.

*edit* You should not have to add that much to your cranking to get it going. Once it's started it's the VE table that controls fuel so you may need to increase those values to something closer to mid-upper 40s.

Can you show a pic of jumper settings on your board? I almost feel like you're only getting fuel from 2 of the 4 injectors. Have you pulled the rail and tested them with CANbus/Testmode?

Our tunes won't be the same, but my idle VE table values and most of the KA's I've seen are closer to 50-ish.

Are you having to hold your foot on the throttle to keep the engine going? If it's idling at 2100 RPM without your foot on the gas you have quite the vacuum leak going on or your IACV is wide open.

I'm also getting a multiplier of 4.8 for your required fueling (from 80 lb/hr injectors.)
Image

I'd raise your required fueling a little there as well. 4.8 or 4.9 should help. And change your value to end of squirt. You need to set up your injector timing table later on, but that's not an issue currently as Idle should be around 360 degrees end of squirt for the cams you're running.

Keep us posted. I'll likely not be around again for a day or two. Best of luck. As always, the manual is your friend;

https://www.ampefi.com/downloads/#documentation
My timing and trigger angle are set and my dizzy is centered. Thanks for pointing out my CTS as there were no values, that is now calibrated. I am not running a MAF at all and my MAP sensor is also calibrated.

I am not running an IACV. There is no place to put one on my intake manifold, though I would prefer to run one. I will have to work that out in the future; it isn't too important right now. I say this because, after I pulled the injectors and tested them, it turns out 2 of them are not firing. Only Inj A and Inj B which are on cylinders 1 and 3. I also did another test and found that I have no vacuum leaks. This is surely my issue and I am looking for a solution.

I pulled off the intake manifold to get to the wiring, but they are wired correctly? However, in test mode they do not work. Inj A and B are still working though. I swapped injectors out and C & D are still not firing. Im not quite understanding what this could be. I even tried swapping to semi sequential and testing them, but that did nothing.
NukeKS14
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 pm
Location: Northeastern KS

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by NukeKS14 »

NukeKS14 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:09 pm
Can you show a pic of jumper settings on your board? I almost feel like you're only getting fuel from 2 of the 4 injectors. Have you pulled the rail and tested them with CANbus/Testmode?


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Not sure what you think wired correctly is. Can you show a picture or tell what port/pins they're wired to? I think you're wired or jumpered for batch fuel injection (signal A runs cyl 1 and 3, signal B runs 2 and 4, kind of similar to wasted spark ignition.)

Image

turn 'Sequential On' to Off. If you can start up the engine and it runs like this, you've either got a jumper issue or you're wired to the wrong inputs on the MS (there are batch inj wires and sequential so... not sure how it's wired or jumpered without seeing either. )

There's really nothing wrong with running batch mode fuel injection. I ran that way for a while until I got my 12-1 trigger wheel set up. You'll use a little more fuel during idle but where you're at right now it's not going to hold you back. IF YOU DO RUN BATCH FUEL INJ. YOUR # SQUIRTS PER ENGINE CYCLE MUST BE EVEN. You're set at 2 currently which is where I'd leave it at, just thought I'd mention.
Johnny240
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by Johnny240 »

My injectors are wired as follows:
Cyl/Inj 1- Injector A
Cyl/Inj2- Injector D
Cyl/Inj3 - Injector B
Cyl/Inj4 - Injector C

All of them share the same power source
All of the ECU ground signal wires are going to the MS3X

Edit:
That last statement, I am not entirely sure about. I will try the batch fire configuration in the morning.
NukeKS14
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 pm
Location: Northeastern KS

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by NukeKS14 »

Johnny240
Driving Mom's Station Wagon
Posts: 24
Joined: Tue Jul 07, 2020 7:16 pm

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by Johnny240 »

My injectors are indeed wired for full sequential and all share the same 12v power source. I wanted to double check because I had not looked at the batch fire configuration's wiring. I did not know whether it shared the wires, only using inj wires A and B from the expansion board.

This issue would be a lot easier to chase down if A and B were also not firing. I'm guessing the next step is to check my grounds. I did this previously, when I was having a spark issue, but I will check again.
NukeKS14
240sx Wannabe
Posts: 157
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:33 pm
Location: Northeastern KS

Re: KA-T MS3X 17+ AFR Issue

Post by NukeKS14 »

Grounds are how the ecu controls your injectors.

It would really help if you would share a pic of your mainboard showing jumper configuration but you didnt respond to.that request the other 2 times I've asked so I don't expect it. Best of luck figuring this out!
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